What levels should the D&D Pantheon Gods be?

Shemeska · Mar 19, 2009

Upper_Krust said:
Do the people over in that forum not know what they want Shemeska?

I'm sure they know what they want, but if you missed my meaning above, what I meant was that I wouldn't exactly call the WotC forums a representative sample of D&D players, even of those players online.

Shemeska · Mar 19, 2009

Upper_Krust said:
Soundly derided!? Perhaps by a vocal minority brought up on the back of 2nd Edition's lily-livered tomfoolery.

As I recall from every thread prior to this one, 3e Deities and Demigods was soundly panned. I think it was up on the last poll as one of the worst/most useless books for 3e. And I also recall some rather amusing, if unflattering comments by at least one of the authors of subsequent books that used its rules on gods, and the precident for deity statblocks rather than more useful, detailed fluff (I want to say it was Mona talking about deity statblocks in 3e's Faiths and Pantheons).

Now I know that fully statted out deities are your thing. You're even crazier about them than I am about all things planar and fiendish, but I think you might be projecting your favored stance onto more people than might be warrented, given past discussions over the years on the topic.

Compare the generally posted opinion on 3e D&DG versus the 2e FR deity books. The former provides all the crunch you could want, and exceedingly slender flavor text. The latter provide avatar stats, tons of in-game history, details on their dogma, clergy, holidays, symbols, etc. The former was poorly received, and that reputation hasn't gotten much better. The latter is typically held up as the gold standard for sourcebooks on D&D deities.

Bold or Stupid · Mar 19, 2009

Kask said:
Umm, no. Reread the original myths as written by the Greek authors. Uranus was castrate, not killed...

Find me a translation of the original and I'll happily read it.

All the versions I've read have the castration kill him.

Upper_Krust · Mar 20, 2009

Hey resistor!

resistor said:
I can only base this on what I have observed, but in the time I've been reading D&D forums (since 2002 or so), this is the first thread I've seen where the net sentiment on god-stats was positive.

While there certainly were some people who spoke out in favor of Deities and Demigods, the overall sentiment on it, in multiple threads of a span of years, seemed to be pretty constantly negative. Whether this reflects an attitude shift in the overall population, I don't know. But it's definitely a shift in the attitude around her.

Also, I'm not convinced it has anything to do with the mechanical implementation thereof. I don't recall many people deriding Deities & Demigods for being clunky or complicated, but for being a bad concept.

Well I think you had two crowds involved debating 3E Deities. The 1st Edition crowd and the 2nd Edition crowd. Obviously those brought up on the latter were only interested in continuing the whole Avatar business perpetrated during 2nd Edition. Naturally the 2nd Edition crowd was fresher and bigger.

But now with the advent of 4th Edition we have those raised on 3rd Edition too, another Edition where deities were statted, badly statted yes, but statted nonetheless.

So now you have the majority not necessarily in favor of stats for gods but certainly not openly against the idea - as the 2nd Edition crowd certainly were.

Upper_Krust · Mar 20, 2009

Shemeska said:
I'm sure they know what they want, but if you missed my meaning above, what I meant was that I wouldn't exactly call the WotC forums a representative sample of D&D players, even of those players online.

Even though its by far the largest community online...and the official community...in your opinion they don't represent a good proportion of D&D players.

Can you further explain your reasoning here?

Kask · Mar 20, 2009

Bold or Stupid said:
Find me a translation of the original and I'll happily read it.

All the versions I've read have the castration kill him.

Google is your friend, or a college level ancient history course...

Shemeska · Mar 20, 2009

Upper_Krust said:
Can you further explain your reasoning here?

I base that on its reputation and the exodus of many people over the past year for a variety of reasons (who may or may not have been replaced with new folks, but site traffic from what I've been told would suggest otherwise).

Shemeska · Mar 20, 2009

Upper_Krust said:
But now with the advent of 4th Edition we have those raised on 3rd Edition too, another Edition where deities were statted, badly statted yes, but statted nonetheless.

So now you have the majority not necessarily in favor of stats for gods but certainly not openly against the idea - as the 2nd Edition crowd certainly were.

I think you're assuming a bit much in your approach's favor about those of us raised on 3rd edition. I was raised on 3e, and I greatly favor the 2e approach.

Upper_Krust · Mar 20, 2009

Hey Shemeska!

Shemeska said:
As I recall from every thread prior to this one, 3e Deities and Demigods was soundly panned.

No one in this thread has said 3E D&Dg was good. But what we are saying is that 4E god stats are good - thats what this thread is saying.

I think it was up on the last poll as one of the worst/most useless books for 3e.

So it was. I only gave it 3/10 in my online review and (as you know) there is no bigger proponent for God Stats than myself.

Immortality

But the fault wasn't that the book featured God stats - it was the way the God stats were featured...don't confuse the two.

And I also recall some rather amusing, if unflattering comments by at least one of the authors of subsequent books that used its rules on gods, and the precident for deity statblocks rather than more useful, detailed fluff (I want to say it was Mona talking about deity statblocks in 3e's Faiths and Pantheons).

I remember that.

Now I know that fully statted out deities are your thing. You're even crazier about them than I am about all things planar and fiendish, but I think you might be projecting your favored stance onto more people than might be warrented, given past discussions over the years on the topic.

I don't think so. What we have is you projecting your stance by saying that Deity Stats are a bad thing - then using 3E D&Dg (a terrible book) as an example.

When the reality is, people have moved on...to 4th Edition (which is what this thread is about) which does feature God Stats very successfully. So successfully in fact that, as Mouseferatu pointed out, there were a large amount of people disappointed that he didn't include the full Bane stats in his Insider article.

Compare the generally posted opinion on 3e D&DG versus the 2e FR deity books. The former provides all the crunch you could want, and exceedingly slender flavor text. The latter provide avatar stats, tons of in-game history, details on their dogma, clergy, holidays, symbols, etc. The former was poorly received, and that reputation hasn't gotten much better. The latter is typically held up as the gold standard for sourcebooks on D&D deities.

Absolutely. 3E D&Dg = bad book (on gods or religions). 2E Faiths & Avatars = good book (on religions).

4E to date has god stats in the Monster Manual (Orcus), Open Grave (Kyuss, Vecna), Manual of the Planes (Baphomet, Dispater, Graz'zt), Draconomicon (Tiamat), D&D Insider (Maglubiyet via the Bane Article) as well as the thus far detailed Primordials (of whom I'm not sure if they have Cults/Followers). All of these have been very well received by the community at large.

Kask · Mar 20, 2009

The gods have been statted since 1st Ed. I still have my original Deities & demigods, complete with Cthulhu gods, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, etc. When were gods NOT statted in D&D?