What levels should the D&D Pantheon Gods be?

arscott · Mar 21, 2009

Planescape, basically. (Hence Shemeska's devotion to non-statted gods)

Shemeska · Mar 21, 2009

Kask said:
The gods have been statted since 1st Ed. I still have my original Deities & demigods, complete with Cthulhu gods, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, etc. When were gods NOT statted in D&D?

2e generally treated deities as beyond the relevancy of stats, and provided stats only for their avatars (hence Krust's bit about 'lilly-livered 2e'). Planescape used this approach during the latter half of the edition, but it was there and used heavily, well prior to that point.

Quartz · Mar 21, 2009

I have a slightly different take: when a 4e Demigod ascends, per the PHB he becomes a very minor deity, so the corrupted Primordials and weaker deities such as Vecna, an ascended mortal, are levels 31-40, and proper deities (Erathis etc) and Primordials are levels 41+.

In effect you're inventing two new 10-level tiers, maybe three if you remember the old Lesser / Intermediate / Greater god rankings. WotC's marketing department should have an evilgasm over that.

Upper_Krust · Mar 22, 2009

Hey there Quartz!

Quartz said:
I have a slightly different take: when a 4e Demigod ascends, per the PHB he becomes a very minor deity, so the corrupted Primordials and weaker deities such as Vecna, an ascended mortal, are levels 31-40, and proper deities (Erathis etc) and Primordials are levels 41+.

I don't think ascended deities are necessarily weaker, as all power is relative.

In effect you're inventing two new 10-level tiers, maybe three if you remember the old Lesser / Intermediate / Greater god rankings. WotC's marketing department should have an evilgasm over that.

At the moment what I have pencilled in is:

Hero-deity = Level 30

Legendary Tier (Levels 31-40)
Quasi-deity = Level 31-35
Demi-deity = Levels 36-40

Immortal Tier (Levels 41-50)
Lesser Deity = 41-45
Greater Deity = 46-50

Remember that NPC deities are adjusted as follows:

Solo = Standard -9
Elite = Standard -4
Standard = Standard (obviously)
Minion = Standard +8

Therefore if we take Orcus as an example:

Solo Level 33 opponent

equivalent to:

Elite Level 38 opponent
Standard Level 42 opponent (meaning Orcus is the equivalent of a Lesser God)
Minion Level 50 opponent

Or how about a Balor as an example:

Elite Level 27 opponent

equivalent to:

Solo Level 22
Standard Level 31 (meaning a Balor is a relatively low-level Quasi-deity)
Minion Level 39

I have tiers going up to Level 80, but I don't believe I would be able to create enough monsters for six new tiers to make those tiers worthwhile. But I think I have enough for two new tiers. Naturally this will mean monsters up to 55th or maybe one or two levels higher being detailed.

Nymrohd · Mar 22, 2009

I've liked the up until now statted gods and epic level threats of 4E. Mostly because 4E is capped at level 30 which means you cannot simply hope to overpower them. They are credible, deific threats to groups of the most accomplished of mortals (a group of level 30 adventurers). Honestly unless you use some broken mechanic from the CharOp boards you don't really have much a chance against any of them, even if you somehow manage to get them alone. And as with all 4E monster stats, the stat block only represents what a deity can do in fair combat. Nothing about what it can do in its own domain or what it can do offscreen.

About 4E ever allowing characters above level 30, god I hope not. Maybe I would like something like a Legendary Power book that allowed you to stay at level 30 and slowly gain additional benefits, like more powers per day or more feats, but allowing characters of levels higher than 30 would break all balance for me.

I can understand that anyone who had seen the D&D book would be appalled by the massive waste of space that 3E god stats was. Tons of unnecessary information that would take a day or two to actually interpret on how it works in combat. And as someone who played planescape during 2E i very much disliked the fact that the average deity could wtfpwn Demogorgon even inside Abysm. Deities certainly were statless in 2E but you could still encounter and interact with them meaningfully. And a couple of mortals did kill deities in 2E lore, always under special circumstances. They did not have stats, sure, but epic level play in 2E was very poorly developed anyway so noone could expect to actually face a deity in that ruleset.

I find that 4E are far closer to the statless deities of 2E than the statblock horrors of 3E. They are easy to interact with, impossible to be killed outside of special circumstances, and a terrifying challenge for the strongest of adventurers in the game.

Shemeska · Mar 23, 2009

Nymrohd said:
And as someone who played planescape during 2E i very much disliked the fact that the average deity could wtfpwn Demogorgon even inside Abysm.

They could? The strong implication for the deity versus archfiends scenario was that within their home planes, and especially so their own domains/layers, an archfiend would wtfpwn a deity (but not so outside of having home field advantage). There was a reason that gods generally stayed as far away from the Blood War (and fiendish politics in general) that they could.

Jhaelen · Mar 23, 2009

Upper_Krust said:
4E to date has god stats in the Monster Manual (Orcus), Open Grave (Kyuss, Vecna), Manual of the Planes (Baphomet, Dispater, Graz'zt), Draconomicon (Tiamat), D&D Insider (Maglubiyet via the Bane Article) as well as the thus far detailed Primordials (of whom I'm not sure if they have Cults/Followers). All of these have been very well received by the community at large.

Humm? Wait a second. Maybe it's because I'm almost asleep right now, but about half of these aren't actually gods, are they?

Bold or Stupid · Mar 24, 2009

Jhaelen said:
Humm? Wait a second. Maybe it's because I'm almost asleep right now, but about half of these aren't actually gods, are they?

Two of them are gods (Vecna and Tiamat) the others are Archukes of Hell, Demon Princes, and an Exarch. Plus Kyuss I have no idea how he classes (beyond icky).

Jhaelen · Mar 24, 2009

Bold or Stupid said:
Two of them are gods (Vecna and Tiamat) the others are Archukes of Hell, Demon Princes, and an Exarch. Plus Kyuss I have no idea how he classes (beyond icky).

Ah, okay, so I wasn't totally wrong. I think 'Maglubiyet' is also a racial god of ... bugbears, or something...

In 3E Vecna was the only core god that didn't exist in my campaign setting. Vecna was a mortal, right? How does ascending to godhood work, anyway? If I remember the backstory from MotP correctly, technically, the Raven Queen is an example for this, too.

Bahamut and Tiamat, well, to me they've always been just big dragons, not gods. I guess, that's where I deviated from the core assumptions. I mean, how does borrowing the name of a Babylonian deity turn a critter into a god?

Similarly, I'm bothered about using the term 'demigod' for the epic destiny in 4E. How can someone become a demigod? I mean, you can't become a half-elf, either. You have to be born as one!

What are the qualities that define a god? Is being able to grant spells to followers important? In the Darksun setting the sorcerer kings were able to do this. In Ravenloft the Lords of a Realm were all-powerful within their realm (similar to Demon Princes and Archdukes of Hell). Does that make them gods? I don't think so. Is it simply the fact that they are worshipped by followers (or cultists)? That would make it quite easy to qualify as a god.

Let's look at some other systems:
- In Earthdawn there are no gods. There are passions, but they aren't worshipped like gods (though there are Questors dedicated to them which are granted certain powers). You cannot affect them in any way and they rarely (if ever) directly interfere with Namegivers.
- In Ars Magica there's the gods of the predominant real-world religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) which are all-powerful. And then there's the pagan gods of the Greek, Roman, Egyptian, German, etc. pantheons which are just powerful Faeries.

Ah, well, I think, I'm not getting anywhere here. I just don't like the idea of fighting (and killing) gods.

Upper_Krust · Mar 24, 2009

Howdy Nymrohd!

Nymrohd said:
I've liked the up until now statted gods and epic level threats of 4E. Mostly because 4E is capped at level 30 which means you cannot simply hope to overpower them. They are credible, deific threats to groups of the most accomplished of mortals (a group of level 30 adventurers). Honestly unless you use some broken mechanic from the CharOp boards you don't really have much a chance against any of them, even if you somehow manage to get them alone.

Agreed. Certainly a solo opponent about 3 or more levels higher than the party level is going to be very tough indeed.

And as with all 4E monster stats, the stat block only represents what a deity can do in fair combat. Nothing about what it can do in its own domain or what it can do offscreen.

Exactly, although I suspect most DMs will set the encounter up so the PCs can win, if indeed the encounter is played at all.

About 4E ever allowing characters above level 30, god I hope not. Maybe I would like something like a Legendary Power book that allowed you to stay at level 30 and slowly gain additional benefits, like more powers per day or more feats, but allowing characters of levels higher than 30 would break all balance for me.

Not sure it would break balance, but I totally get what you are saying. With PCs capped at 30 they can't just roll over the top of gods by virtue of being higher level.

Of course that doesn't really deter me from instigating two new tiers. Primarily because the PCs will themselves be gods, so its not that big a deal to have a group of gods defeat another god. But secondly because I'll have the same dynamic at Level 50 when the Greater God PCs are taking on Overgods and the oldest Primordials who are Level 51+, whom they won't simply be able to go 'over the top' on from levels alone.

I can understand that anyone who had seen the D&D book would be appalled by the massive waste of space that 3E god stats was. Tons of unnecessary information that would take a day or two to actually interpret on how it works in combat.

The stat blocks were a complete bland overload.

And as someone who played planescape during 2E i very much disliked the fact that the average deity could wtfpwn Demogorgon even inside Abysm. Deities certainly were statless in 2E but you could still encounter and interact with them meaningfully. And a couple of mortals did kill deities in 2E lore, always under special circumstances. They did not have stats, sure, but epic level play in 2E was very poorly developed anyway so noone could expect to actually face a deity in that ruleset.

I like the idea that all power is relative. Thats why I never liked the 'well because hes a god' excuse.

I find that 4E are far closer to the statless deities of 2E than the statblock horrors of 3E. They are easy to interact with, impossible to be killed outside of special circumstances, and a terrifying challenge for the strongest of adventurers in the game.

Try telling that to Shemeska though.