How I "fixed" healing in and out of combat without using the Healing Surge mechanic

Daniel D. Fox

Explorer
I hate healing surges, I'll start with that. I don't like the metamechanics surrounding it, and I don't like that Heal and Endurance aren't used to regenerate HP. Here's how I remedied it to cater to a fast and dangerous, low magic campaign -

  • Any player can use their Second Wind once per encounter. You roll a d20, add your Endurance skill and that's the HP you've mended.
  • If a player uses an ability that allows a player to use a Second Wind, you can heal HP for free without spending your Second Wind encounter power. Same as above.
  • If you're outside of combat, you can Bind Wounds on yourself as a daily. Roll roll a d20, add your Heal skill and that's the HP you've mended.
  • Whenever you take an Extended Rest, you gain back all lost HP for the day before, unless you were Bloodied. If you were Bloodied that day, you must succeed a moderate Endurance check for your level. If you fail, you don't gain the benefits of an Extended Rest.
  • Powers such as Inspiring Word and Lay On Hands cannot be used outside of combat encounters, period. They are a measure of healing that only function during high stress; e.g. a combat encounter.
Oh, and you don't need to rest between encounters to refresh your Encounter powers. They autorefresh.

That's it!

Cheers,
Daniel
 
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Scribble

First Post
The only issue I see with this is it ads back in the issue of a "need" for divine classes.

Meaning if you want the maximum ability in any given day you want a divine class, as they're the only ones that can use a healing power outside of combat right? (or am I missing something?)

To me one of the greatest things they did with the new mechanic is remove the need for a divine healer. You still need SOME sort of healer for optimal benefit, but it doesn't need to be divine. (Which to me opens up a lot of different playstyle and campaign ideas and such...)

If you're ok with this as a result, right on!
 

Yeah, I guess I'm not sure why only certain healing powers are favored over others. Why not allow any power that heals to heal in any situation? Was there a particular reason for that?

I'm not really sure why it is necessary to alter the values for healing surges either. The d20 method is probably overall pretty much equivalent to current HS values for lower level characters, but if you DO get beyond heroic, then it won't work. Also what happens when someone rolls a 1 on their d20 healing roll? Adventuring day over... Same thing with the whole bloodied thing, if a PC fails to heal up the party is just going to NOT adventure while they're gimped. I know it is more 'realistic' seeming, but all in all it is just annoying.
 

keterys

First Post
Hmm, currently healing is
something like (12 + Con Score)/4 + optional bonuses (Healing Lore, etc) at 1st, and 1.25 per level above that, plus or minus about 25%, or about (5 + 1.25*Lvl) + Bonuses.

So, for some touchpoints:
2nd = 7+
6th = 12+
10th = 17+
etc at +5 per 4 levels.

This would make it 1d20 + Lvl/2 + ConMod. Or, more like
2nd = 12+
6th = 14+
10th = 16+

And so on, adding 2 every 4 levels. So, it's initially a lot more healing from a second wind / Heal but it's later a lot less. I'd suggest trying to coax that scale a little closer.

I'm not really looking at the long term problem math as, well, I like healing surges and won't be using this - just trying to be helpful.
 

Daniel D. Fox

Explorer
Hmm, currently healing is
something like (12 + Con Score)/4 + optional bonuses (Healing Lore, etc) at 1st, and 1.25 per level above that, plus or minus about 25%, or about (5 + 1.25*Lvl) + Bonuses.

So, for some touchpoints:
2nd = 7+
6th = 12+
10th = 17+
etc at +5 per 4 levels.

This would make it 1d20 + Lvl/2 + ConMod. Or, more like
2nd = 12+
6th = 14+
10th = 16+

And so on, adding 2 every 4 levels. So, it's initially a lot more healing from a second wind / Heal but it's later a lot less. I'd suggest trying to coax that scale a little closer.

I'm not really looking at the long term problem math as, well, I like healing surges and won't be using this - just trying to be helpful.

Yeah, the numbers are a bit difficult to figure out at higher levels. However, a lot of people train Heal specifically for the bonus. I am guessing that around mid-Paragon levels that there will be diminishing returns, which I feel I can fix with feats or passive bonuses based on tier.
 

keterys

First Post
Hmm, fair. Assuming it's a design feature that it heals more initially (especially for someone appropriately trained and/or focused), you're looking at a 7.5 gap per tier just looking at scaling (12.5 per tier RAW, 5 per tier based on skill scaling your way)

I'm guessing something like '+5 at Paragon, +15 at Epic' would be close enough though.
 

Lakoda

First Post
I think this is a really neat idea, however running the numbers your HS value will beat your average endurance check result (10 + mods) before paragon, and after that the disparity grows, fast. By 30 it is around 20+ depending on how much you spec for HP or Endurance. That is ignoring HP and HS boosting features, feats, and items. The math will need some serious work for this to be balanced beyond heroic. My initial guess will be +1/2 Level at Paragon. At least that is what I'm starting with as I work something out.

Edit: So the problem I see is that you have different increases to HP (and therefore HS value) by role and by power source, so it is hard to have a "flat" bonus. It almost needs to be dependent on the same factors. What about the Paladin's bonus to extra HS over the others? How does have more HS affect this? Should it?
 
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Alex319

First Post
I assume that when you say:

If a player uses an ability that allows a player to use a Second Wind, you can heal HP for free without spending your Second Wind encounter power. Same as above.

you mean "spend a healing surge" instead of just "use your second wind." So, for example, a Warlord's Inspiring Word (at 1st-5th level) would heal for (1d20 + target's Endurance) + 1d6 (for the bonus from Inspiring Word). Is this correct?

Also:

This would make it 1d20 + Lvl/2 + ConMod. Or, more like
2nd = 12+
6th = 14+
10th = 16+

And so on, adding 2 every 4 levels. So, it's initially a lot more healing from a second wind / Heal but it's later a lot less. I'd suggest trying to coax that scale a little closer.

This is not accurate because it ignores benefits from skill training or skill focus. I would venture to guess that most, if not all, characters would train Endurance - 5 additional HP from every heal is a lot, especially since most healing only functions in combat. (Just for clarification: Are there ANY healing powers other than your new Bind Wounds that function outside of combat?)

Anyway, as for the effects on balance:

First of all, it makes Leaders a LOT more useful. Since the players have very limited healing outside of combat, they can only sustain their adventuring if the number of HP they can heal during combat is at least as much as the number of HP they take in damage every combat. Thus players will have to load up on healing powers if they want to survive. And since there are no more healing surges, there's no limit to the amount that can be healed per day.

As an aside, the intended purpose of the existing healing surge system (as I see it) is to balance out the power of leaders and other healers. The HS system makes it so that a party without leaders or with few leaders can still survive, because players can self-heal after combat. Nevertheless leaders are still very useful, because they can heal others in combat, which is otherwise hard to do. But a party can't just load up on leaders and be nearly invincible by pumping out as much healing as possible, because they'll quickly run out of healing surge.

Your system gets rid of the "boost" on the low-leader side of the comparison, which seems to be what you want - to make the game more dangerous such that leaders are required to survive. But you also seem to remove the effective "healing limit," encouraging a party to load up on as many leaders as possible. One option to consider might be keeping healing surges as a limit on the number of times a character can receive healing, but remove the "self-heal to full during short rest" ability if that's what you want.

Also, the mechanism of healing powers only working during combat encounters seems to encourage two possibly unwanted behaviors: (1) keeping one monster alive until everyone's used up all their encounter heals and (2) intentionally seeking out weak encounters in order to use the healing. For example, suppose that players were fighting a bunch of kobolds. They could capture one, and then if later in the adventure they were running low on hit points, they could release the kobold and fight him, starting a combat encounter. Then they could go through a whole another cycle of encounter healing, and whack the kobold one more time to finish the job. (And they could even due this multiple times with the same kobold!)

Of course, (1) could be dealt with by allowing players to use all remaining encounter healing immediately after the end of a combat encounter (but after that they can't use it again until the next combat encounter), and (2) could be dealt with by not recharging players' healing after very weak encounters (kind of like how the DMG says you can discount weak encounters when calculating milestones.)
 

keterys

First Post
This is not accurate because it ignores benefits from skill training or skill focus.

That would be the '+' - much like everyone also gets 1d6+4 from a healing word from their leader instead of using second wind normally, or uses healing standards and brooches... which is the + on the other side of the equation.
 

Lakoda

First Post
So I am done running the numbers and this seems very doable. Based on what your Hit Points per Level value is will affect what bonuses you get to the Endurance check.

4/Level - add half level (with the half level from the skill bonus it is basically added your level to your con mod and misc mods).

5/Level - add half level and 1 additional every 4 levels (starting with level 4).

6/Level - add half level and 1 additional every even level.

7/Level - add half level and 1 additional every level except 1st, 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th, 21th, 25th, and 29th (which is everyone 4th level).

Since you gain 1 point to your HS value for every 4 hit points and you gain either 4, 5, 6, or 7 hit points per level, the math is [Level / (4 / ( X - 4 ) )] where X is the number of HP per level you gain, to figure out which levels you need to add an extra point ot your HS value. Example, if you gain 5 HP per level, every 4th level you the remainder of those HP / 4 will result in an extra point (5 HP = 1 HSV; 10 HP = 2 HSV; 15 HP = 3 HSV; 20 HP = 5 HSV).

Now if you want you can try and provide a bonus based on your starting HP as that will throw off the numbers. Add +1 for starting HP of 12 + mod, and add +2 for starting of 15 + mod and 17 + mod.

It's complicated but it works out pretty easily. Currently it is scaled for low con, (every 2 points of con equals a +1 to your endurance but only a +0.5 to your HS value) so high values get a bigger benefit with this system then with the HS system. I figured that was better then penalizing low con. It is a small difference of 4.5 or 9 divided by 2 (or 5 ... 10 divided by 2 ... if you take the Chosen ED to up your con more); min con is 8 (-1) which will be 10 (+0) by level 21, and by 30 your max con is 28 (+9) (30 (+10) if you take the Chosen), then divide by two because endurance is twice as fast as your HS value. Since there isn't a lot you can do about this, I'd say to just leave it in as a reward for the increased risk of rolling a 1.

If you make charts it would be pretty quick, given the moderate complexity of the math. I know this is something I would definitely use (if my group agreed) knowing that the math can be swung to work out so well.
 

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