Wall of Force question

dingle · Apr 12, 2009

Jhaelen said:
It doesn't have to.

It will reflect sounds made by the dragon, the party, and anything else near it that DOES make any noise, thus it's perfectly detectable using hearing.

I think the question is Does a dragon have Sonar hearing like a bat. I would say not otherwise it would be probably be blind.
I doubt that the wall of force would give off that much of an echo as it is relativly small and only one plane. Its not like being in a tunnel where the sound has no where else to go.

Kask · Apr 12, 2009

dingle said:
I think the question is Does a dragon have Sonar hearing like a bat. I would say not otherwise it would be probably be blind.
I doubt that the wall of force would give off that much of an echo as it is relativly small and only one plane. Its not like being in a tunnel where the sound has no where else to go.

And, where does it say that a wall of force reflects sound vibrations from the air? That would mean it would have to vibrate as a result of the air vibrating. Doubtful at best.

Jack Simth · Apr 12, 2009

Kask said:
And, where does it say that a wall of force reflects sound vibrations from the air? That would mean it would have to vibrate as a result of the air vibrating. Doubtful at best.

Thing is, though, it's not actually specified - anywhere - exactly how a dragon's blindsense works. There is, however, a generic entry on Blindsense:

SRD said:
Blindsense: Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.

(Emphasis added)

Basically, the Dragon can tell there's a wall there, even if he can't see it. Why? Not specified. Of course, the Wall of Force spell doesn't specify it's interactions with sound, or scent. It's just called out as "invisible". Unfortunately, almost all the arguments anyone has been making regarding a Dragon's Blindsense and a Wall of Force rely on things not specified in one or the other - how exactly a dragon's blindsense works, and how exactly a wall of force interacts with sound, scent, and such.

Thatwackyned · Apr 12, 2009

Jack Simth said:
Thing is, though, it's not actually specified - anywhere - exactly how a dragon's blindsense works. There is, however, a generic entry on Blindsense:

(Emphasis added)

Basically, the Dragon can tell there's a wall there, even if he can't see it. Why? Not specified. Of course, the Wall of Force spell doesn't specify it's interactions with sound, or scent. It's just called out as "invisible". Unfortunately, almost all the arguments anyone has been making regarding a Dragon's Blindsense and a Wall of Force rely on things not specified in one or the other - how exactly a dragon's blindsense works, and how exactly a wall of force interacts with sound, scent, and such.

But your reference refers to "The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature." The opening of "lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight" means that it should not be able to know exactly where the wall is, general area, but not exactly.

Jack Simth · Apr 13, 2009

Thatwackyned said:
But your reference refers to "The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature." The opening of "lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight" means that it should not be able to know exactly where the wall is, general area, but not exactly.

It still lets the Dragon know it needs to turn around suddenly because there's something in the way. Maybe not well enough to target the Wall of Force with a Disintegrate, but well enough to know that it needs to turn.

Jhaelen · Apr 13, 2009

dingle said:
I think the question is Does a dragon have Sonar hearing like a bat. I would say not otherwise it would be probably be blind.
I doubt that the wall of force would give off that much of an echo as it is relativly small and only one plane. Its not like being in a tunnel where the sound has no where else to go.

Actually that's not the question. As I mentioned above you don't need to be a bat to detect walls using sound. It's just a matter of training. It's how blind persons navigate around obstacles (to give a real world example).

Dragons having Blindsense represents extremely accurate senses, i.e. exactly like the (other) senses of a blind persons (or even better). I'm not sure the dragon should be able to detect it automatically, but a high enough spot/listen role should do the trick.

Kask · Apr 13, 2009

Jack Simth said:
Basically, the Dragon can tell there's a wall there, even if he can't see it.

A wall of force isn't a creature. Try again.

Less snark, please. ~ PCat

Piratecat · Apr 13, 2009

When the rules aren't exactly clear, I generally go with "what will be the most fun for the players?" I played in a game where we tricked a dragon into running into a wall of force, and we still talk about it years later. Even if it isn't optimal for the dragon, it seems like a heck of a lot of fun...

...but I'm not your GM. I can see it either way.

You can put a wall of force in the air, though. It doesn't need to be supported. It does need to be flat.

hong · Apr 13, 2009

The best experience I had with wall of force was in my Brit3E campaign some years back.

The PCs are at one end of a long hallway, with a group of fire giants at the other. The fire giant king bellows his war cry and charges, hefting his axe...

... and smacks head-first into the wall of force that the sorcerer put up.

So he gets up and yells at his shaman to bring the wall down. The shaman obliges, casting dispel magic. The giant king bellows his war cry and charges again...

... and smacks into the wall of force, because dispel magic doesn't work on WoF.

So he get up and screams even more at his hapless shaman to use the right bleepin' spell. The shaman pulls out a disintegrate scroll and zaps the wall. The giant king yells his war cry and charges for the third time, into the midst of the PCs. The other giants follow him...

... and smack into the wall of force that the sorc cast again.

The PCs proceeded to turn the king into chowder, then brought the wall down, and did the same to the other giants. It was the BEST FIGHT EVER.

dingle · Apr 13, 2009

Jhaelen;4752297 It's just a matter of training. It's how blind persons navigate around obstacles (to give a real world example). Dragons having Blindsense represents extremely accurate senses said:
You are right that a blind person can detect odjects by sound (a clicking sound, a bit like a dolphin I suppose) and detecting the echo. If a dragon would know about this and be making any sound at the time, I don't know. So I suppose a high listen check would be OK. He could have spent 100 years in his cave perfecting it they live long enough after all.
I still would have would have had him fly into the wall though, much more fun.