First time Magic User Advice?

Am willing to go with any kit class etc...my problem is I've never really played a magic user. I've done fighters, rogues, and lately been playing a psi-warrior.

Any advice on which one is generally easier to catch onto? I will more than likely be focusing on a diplomacy/bluff/sense motive type build but never know...

Also would a sorc logically take knowledge arcana...being as they don't per say use magic in the same sense as a wizard would. Its considered to be more of a raw ability or power that lends to them?

I want to go with a more RP effective character than my hack and slash psi warrior was.

I am playing a real magic-user--a sorcerer--for the first time also. I like it. I am the usually the straight build guy...I rarely multi-class. The sorcerer is easier because of the limitation on spells and the ability to cast at will. True, picking less spell to know, but at the early levels, you really can't go wrong with any attack spell + mage armor in your list. I think you will have no trouble being happy with your initial spell selection. Just decide if you will be more blaster/attacker, buffer/utility, or battlefield controller. Also, the casting at will is much more satisfying if you don't want to deal with logistics of spellcraft. There are lots of good V,S only spells--no need for lots of material components.

We just had an adventure where the wizard didn't bring her spellbook to a local encounter we thought would end fairly quick. We got trapped inside for a couple days by a force-field that protected the dungeon in town. She was spell-less after that first 24-hrs in the dungeon, and the heavies hadn't come yet. Luckily, she had a wand. Which reminds me...pick up lots of basic, infrequently used scrolls to give you some diversity with spellcasting and get a familiar.

Working off that last comment, my one bit of advice...depending on what level you are starting on, and how much magic stuff is around, get a magic missile wand. Don't take the spell unless you don't think you can get sufficient gold fast enough. Our DM was starting the campaign with 3rd level characters, so we could buy a magic item within a certain cost range. Using the magic missile wand doesn't draw an AoO, where a casting the spell in a fight could. Plus you are not limited by your knowledge...if you need 8 magic missiles that day, the wand can provide that.

Familiars: I tend to pick familiars that fit my character's storyline with less regard to their bonuses and what not. For example, I played a rogue (a locksmith / exterminator with trapmaking craft) with one level of wizard (a diviner, because that was my mentor). My familiar was a rat that decided to tag along after I caught and released him--I named him Trapspring...guess what his thankless job was? My current familiar is a weasel because of the sneakiness/cunning factor. The familiar does give me some additional role-playing opportunities.

I think the limitation on skill points and class skills is something you should discuss with your DM and negotiate. There have been comments that another skill point or two per level and a couple additional class skills would provide for a more versatile sorcerer. Basically Diplomacy, Gather Infomation, and Intimidate (all Cha-based) seem like good skills a sorcerer could have, especially since the PHB says they can be an excellent spy or diplomat (under Roles). You can just see the vane sorcerer trying to extract the secret from the tipster by using a hand crackling with electricity from the shocking grasp spell she just cast. Well, with an average intelligence and only 2 skill points per level, they can be--but at the expense of essential concentration and spellcraft skills. So I can build my concentration and spellcraft evenly with 1 rank per level each, or I can spend both ranks to build any of those cross-class skills only 1 rank? Hmmm. No real choice in my opinion. The lack of skills really limits my character to his spellcraft which has its own obvious limitations on versatility. I think these slight additions would add a bit more value to the sorcerer.

I hope my feedback helps. I would like to see what you choose. Good luck and have fun!

The trick with playing an effective sorc is that you must be fairly familiar with how spells work, so you can select them properly. Else, you might end up being stuck with a fairly poor spell selection, and being able to cast them spontaneously doesn't really amount to much when they all suck.

What books are allowed?

You can try reading this article on how to play an effective battlefield controller wizard.

Treantmonk's guide to Wizards: Being a God - Wizards Community

so High cha and int is a priority...from the sounds of it.

Runestar said:

The trick with playing an effective sorc is that you must be fairly familiar with how spells work, so you can select them properly. Else, you might end up being stuck with a fairly poor spell selection, and being able to cast them spontaneously doesn't really amount to much when they all suck.

What books are allowed?

You can try reading this article on how to play an effective battlefield controller wizard.

Treantmonk's guide to Wizards: Being a God - Wizards Community

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Runestar speaks the truth. Sorcerors are good fun because you can pick a few attack spells and just blast away, but if you pick a spell that turns out to be useless you'll be stuck with it for a while. Wizards don't have the same amount of firepower, but they can learn ANY arcane spell if they get the chance. It's a matter of flexibility versus firepower.

A final thought: do you want to be able to create magical items, scrolls, potions, etc.? Because the wizard is the way to go if that is the case.

dnchut said:

so High cha and int is a priority...from the sounds of it.

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Yes. However, depending on how much role playing you like to do, putting high stats into something like Con or Str can make for an interesting wizard character. I am currently playing a wizard specialized in Transmutation with Illusion and Enchantment as forbidden schools. This means I have no Sleep or Charm Person available, which has resulted in some creative uses of Enlarge Person and a Bluff check to trick some baddies into thinking I am actually a giant. Transmuters generally aren't about blasting things so much as shaping themselves or their allies and granting unusual powers. It has been a lot of fun, and a bit of a challenge.

Wizards are often difficult. One of the players in my campaign wanted to copy some spells into his spell book. He was shocked when I told him it would take 16 days and something like 1200 gold pieces (PHB 179).

Wizards also have to pre-select their spells. You must decide at the start of the day what spells you have, and how many of each. There is no adjusting later. If you pick a spell that is not useful during the course of your adventuring day, tough.

Sorcerers are easier in the sense that you just innately "know" a small selection of spells, with no spell book costs. Sorcerers are also easier in the sense that you don't need to preselect spells. If you know Ice Dagger, Kelgore's Fire Bolt, and Identify, you can cast ANY of them until you run out of level 1 spells for the day. Sorcerers are worse in the sense that they get spells a level after wizards do. If a wizard gets level 3 spells (yay Fireball!) when the wizards reaches level 5, well... a sorcerer of the same level is limited to level 2 spells. When the sorcerer reaches level 6, then he can cast 3rd level spells.

Many people confuse the sorcerer's "spells known" table with the sorcerer's "spell slots" table. One is how many spells you know, the other is how many times you can cast.

A trick, kinda hyper-optimizing, but used well by one of my players: Figure out which class you want to play long-term, and then make your first level be in the OTHER class. Generally, you don't want to lose spell casting levels, because at the high-end of the game (level 15+) you're going to suffer if you are NOT casting 8th & 9th level spells when all your enemies are. If you fall behind by even a level or two, ouch. Having said that, our campaigns END at level 15 or so, which makes such worries for us a little less... worrisome. So, start with 1 level of sorcerer before embarking on a career as a wizard (or vice versa)? Because the first level of each class comes with a big starting dump of spells. You don't get such a bounty at any other level. A second-level character who has one level of sorcerer & one level of wizard can cast 8 cantrips and at least 4 1st-level spells (probably more due to bonus spells).

Last tip. As a player, I generally spread my ability score points out. If I'm doing 32 point buy, I hate spending 3 points just to get an ability score from 16 to 17. Spending another 3 points to increase it to 18 has always seemed absurd to me. I'd rather have a couple 16s and 14s. But it turns out that having a few sorta-high stats really is only good for fighter types & generalists (like a bard). For clerics/druids/sorcerers/wizards, you really, really want your main casting stat high. This affects the DC of your spell saving throws. Getting your DCs up even just a couple of points is a major victory.

I played a cleric with a 16 wisdom. A friend played a wizard who had an 18 intelligence, and had a feat or something that also increased DCs. The end result was that if we were both on the battlefield casting hold person on enemies, bad guys rolling a 15+ were unaffected by my spell, but they needed to roll an 18 to save against the wizard's exact same spell.

You don't realize how significant that extra 1 or 2 (or 3!) points is until you actually see it play out.

Spellcasters should have an 18 stat and not feel bad or guilty about point-buying their way to it.

so High cha and int is a priority...from the sounds of it.

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If you are a sorc, you will want to focus on cha, and maybe boost your int to 10-12, depending on how many skills you are interested in maxing out. Concentration is a given, you may want bluff to take advantage of your good cha, and maybe knowledge: arcana if no one else in the party has it. Spellcraft may or may not be optional.

If you are human, leaving int at 10 lets you max out 3 skills, 12 int allows you to focus on all 4. You may not actually need that many (arcana and spellcraft are slightly less advantageous to a sorc compared to a wiz due to their disparity in int).

Do note that the metamagic specialist variant in PHB2 is keyed off int, so you might actually want to go up to 14 int to get more uses out of it (and rely on a headband of int to boost it further).

Wis can be left at 10. If you don't plan on relying on ranged touch spells, you can also leave dex at 10 (despite what might be said about AC, attack rolls will likely increase faster than you can bump your AC, which all but forces you to rely on absolute defenses such as mirror image or displacement).

What sort of role are you looking for as a spellcaster? If you want to be a blaster, I suggest you go warmage instead. PHB2 has the beguiler (somewhat like a bard/illusionist/enchanter hybrid) if you are interested in a more roguish-oriented caster.

I'd recommend the sorcerer class for one's first spellcaster. It is much simpler and easier to play than preparation-based casters. You have many fewer spells to manage and don't have to worry about preparing them. You don't have to worry about a spellbook, either. And you can use any of the spells you know in any combination, up to your daily limit. Of course, don't let that discourage you if you find a wizard or other class more appealing. I'm sure you can handle it.

I'd strongly recommend picking up a crossbow (or longbow, if you're an elf). It gives you a semi-decent attack option when you're out of spells or don't want to waste them. This will likely be your primary attack at low levels. You have very few spells at low levels, so you must conserve them.

If your DM allows it, you should consider taking a reserve feat from Complete Arcane. These feats give you an at-will supernatural ability as long as you have a certain type of spell prepared (or unused, if you're a sorcerer). These abilities are minor, but they're very nice when you want to conserve spells. As long as you don't use the spell that's powering it, you can use the reserve feat's ability as much as you want! Fiery Burst is my personal favorite (a 5 ft. radius burst that deals 1d6/spell level), but there are feats for the other elements as well.

A sorcerer seems like the easiest of the caster classes to pick up and play, but it's not. You need to plan with a sorcerer. As quickly as possible, you want to be able to have a variety of energy attacks (to avoid ER), battlefield control effects, and spells that pound all three saves.

Consider this spell list, for a 15th level sorcerer from the Paizo competition:

7th (5/day)--greater teleport, summon monster VII
6th (7/day)--acid fog, chain lightning, greater dispel magic
5th (7/day)--baleful polymorph, cone of cold, dismissal, feeblemind
4th (7/day)--bestow curse, enervation, stoneskin, summon monster IV
3rd (8/day)--dispel magic, fireball, ray of exhaustion, slow
2nd (8/day)--bear's endurance, bull's strength, eagle's splendor, glitterdust, touch of idiocy
1st (8/day)--expeditious retreat, grease, mage armor, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement
0 (6/day)--acid splash, arcane mark, detect magic, mage hand, mending, message, read magic, resistance, touch of fatigue

That is one well-chosen spell list: cold, acid, electricity, fire, battlefield control, summoning creatures (meleers, grapplers or poisoners), baleful polymorph, mobility, buffers and de-buffers, spells targeting all three saves, energy drains, condition-imposers, ability drains, AC boosts, and magic missile.