WotC puts a stop to online sales of PDFs

Xyxox · Apr 7, 2009

Jack99 said:
I think WotC will come out and sell the PDF (old and new) themselves.

I think that there will be 4E electronic availability, but only with a DDI subscription.

I do not beleive we will ever see older versions available in PDF again.

Aberzanzorax · Apr 7, 2009

Argh.

There is at least one old thread here (I think it is locked) that debates the difference between theft and infringement.

EDIT: I think this is the thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/146688-piracy-serious-issue-game-developers.html

They are different legal concepts, as are stealing, burglary, robbery, etc.

They have specific legal meanings.

Look them up if you don't believe me.

If you are using them in the colloquial way, fine, but if you claim to be using them in the legal way, please look them up so that you are correct.

You don't want to be saying "murder" when you mean "manslaughter."

Vyvyan Basterd · Apr 7, 2009

Has anyone been able to confirm (ENWorld staff, especially) that WotC_Trevor's post is reflective of Wizards official stance on this subject? I assume at least that an ENWorld opster can't take a WotC moniker without confirmation they are a WotC employee. Even so, are we sure that Trevor is speaking with authority?

Beyond that I am extremely disappointed with WotC's actions to remove pdf sales (especially the OOP products) and their inaction in giving us an official response.

Jack99 · Apr 7, 2009

Xyxox said:
I think that there will be 4E electronic availability, but only with a DDI subscription.

I do not beleive we will ever see older versions available in PDF again.

Anything is of course possible. But if there is money to be made of the old pdf's, it would be very uncharacteristic of WotC to not sell them.

Cheers

Voadam · Apr 7, 2009

Scribble said:
If I remember correctly it took wizards a while to actually get into the pdf market at all. When they did, they started with heavily DRMed ebooks that lacked a number of key functions pdf users wanted/needed. Then when they finally switched to the current PDF form, they did so at prices that were increadibly high (for pdfs) and not every book was available. It wasn't until the current edition that they started offering all the books released at a price discounted from the print version.

I know based on the limited statement we have it appears that this action was done as a "reaction" to pirating, but I kind of get the feeling that it's more that piracy was used as the ultimate "proof" against pdfs.

I think someone just finally had the numbers needed to show PDFs in a bad light.

WotC started doing pdfs in house long ago, I think it was even before 3e was anounced. They were super cheap to start, something like $3 each then.

They then spun it off to be run by an outside company still using their ESD format with special software for generating big pdfs.

Later it went on to rpgnow as straight pdfs.

Originally they said 3e pdfs would come on after a period of time but they did not show up, just the old edition ones with later scans being outsourced to be done quickly and cheaply leading to large file sizes and poor OCR.

I'm a little fuzzy on the interim period after that first outside distributing company stopped. I think they went off of rpgnow for a while and then onto DTRPG with 3.5e ones coming on with DRM and full hardcopy cost. Later DTRPG and RPGNOW formed OBS and it was on both. WotC eventually took the DRM off but kept the full cost price point. Later 4e ones were sold with I think it was 25% off cover price, about $25 for each of the core books.

At some point the old edition pdfs were available on paizo as well with different prices and not a complete overlap of catalogues.

Lonely Tylenol · Apr 7, 2009

Zaruthustran said:
Wrong. Simply incorrect, on technical legal as well as moral grounds. It's simple: if you've taken something of value without paying for it, you've stolen it. That's what stealing means.

Well, if you want to be technical about it, piracy isn't theft. It's copyright infringement, which is a completely different branch of criminal law. According to the law, stealing means to take an object into your possession without ownership of the object being transferred to you.

Making a copy of a PDF is much the same as using a photocopier to make a copy of a book. Under normal circumstances, you have the right to reproduce (under fair use) and distribute 10% of the document, or one chapter, whichever is shorter, or 20% of the document if it does not contain chapters. If you copy more than that, you're in violation of the law, not because you've stolen anything but because you have copied more than you were allowed to. If you make a copy of a book, and leave that copy lying around on a desk, and someone takes it without asking, that would be theft.

This distinction is pretty cut-and-dried, and it comes up every time a piracy-related thread occurs. It baffles me that there is still some kind of confusion on the legal realities of copyright law, considering how many times I've seen this exact point explained in detail on these boards.

Admiral Caine · Apr 7, 2009

Xyxox said:
I think that there will be 4E electronic availability, but only with a DDI subscription.

I do not beleive we will ever see older versions available in PDF again.

I agree. Particularly prior edition material. I don't think you'll see that stuff available ever again. It is in competition with 4th Edition. Particularly since that material could be converted to Pathfinder and other systems that are close to those legacy products.

I am prepared to be wrong, but I don't think I will be.

Just to be clear, I don't think getting rid of old edition products was the intent behind this decision, but this is an excellent opportunity to kill two birds with one stone.

And I'm seeing feathers on the ground right now.

The Ghost · Apr 7, 2009

Alzrius said:
I wasn't clear in my initial post. I don't think it matters in terms of the loss of trust and ill-will generated among their customers. WotC may very well come up with a new digital distribution system for their books in the future. However, that won't erase how many of their customers feel burned and vote with their wallet accordingly right now.

When you do something that alienates your customer base, you can't just undo the damage by coming back later and doing the opposite.

True. But many (most?) of us have very short memories. At some point in the future WotC will produce a product that will Wow! us once again, and many people who have sworn off WotC will be back as customers.

Now, this does not excuse them from the colossal :rant:

-up that this move is/was. And they do deserve to hear about it. They have shown in the past, at least as far as their Magic: the Gathering property goes, to actually listen to their customers and make good and appropriate changes.

Kask · Apr 7, 2009

Arivendel said:
I would like to point out again that we dont know if their reactions are due to the recent discovery of the PHB 2 piracy,

No, ceasing to sell 1st & 2nd Ed PDFs does nothing to stop pirating of 4E material. The only logical reason is that they don't want people playing older editions (spending $ on them) as they see it as eroding 4E sales. It costs them nothing to have people sell older PDFs and makes them $. The only reason to stop it is because someone doesn't like the current 4E sales numbers and in a misguided move decided to eliminate some competition.

Obryn · Apr 7, 2009

Roman said:
Charles, nice to see you here! That said, I think the anger here is based on the fact that for many people this is the last straw in a string of decisions by WotC over the past several years that are perceived to be hostile to the RPG community at large, ranging from the cancellation of the magazines, through the GSL fiasco to the current PDF fiasco.

You know, I keep on hearing things referred to as "the last straw."

I don't buy it. There have been way too many "last straws" for me to believe it. I think a lot of those claiming this was the last straw have had previous last straws, and that there will be more last straws after this one.

Which is fine - I just think a statement like "I WILL NEVER SUPPORT THIS COMPANY EVER AGAIN BECAUSE OF THIS ACTION!" is (usually) the internet version of a politely-worded complaint letter, just with extra froth because there's barely any barrier between thought and publication.

For me? I'm disappointed, but as I said elsewhere, I'm disappointed because it's simply a dumb move. It's like when your buddy gets back together with a horrible ex who's bad for him. It's forehead-smacking idiocy and a feeling of dread, not anger and rage.

It's not like WotC is supporting totalitarian regimes, using child labor, or even suing grandmothers for downloading. They're just making a mind-numbingly stupid response to a legitimate concern and showing astonishingly poor customer relations skills in the process.

-O

WotC puts a stop to online sales of PDFs

Xyxox

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Aberzanzorax

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Vyvyan Basterd

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