WotC puts a stop to online sales of PDFs

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I daresay that if this level of communication had come from WotC we could have avoided about 90% of the problems that have emerged. Seriously.

Not really.

It would not have been appropriate for WotC to communicate with the general public before they discussed things with the vendors, and given the vendors time to get their ducks in a row for the inevitable questions. A vendor reacted before WotC could then communicate with the public. Even if WotC had planned this level of communication, they weren't allowed it. WotC management probably heard about the action after we did - such is the nature of news on the internet.

So, WotC has probably been playing catch-up. And, it if wasn't WotC's action that caused the problem, it makes seven kinds of sense (and is far more professional) for them to not talk until the vendor spoke first.
 
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roguerouge

First Post
But Piracy Can't Be Stopped!

That's probably true. And piracy has been around since before the first D&D PDF was released, and WotC has always known about it. (I'm the guy that launched the first current-edition PDF sales, so I know what I'm saying here.)

We agree on this point. So you can see why WotC making "stopping piracy" their first impression was a bad move. Never treat customers as if they have no common sense. But that's exactly what they did.

It's pretty clear to me that what WotC is reacting to is a trend in piracy. Based on these events, I'm guessing there's been a pretty dramatic increase in piracy, particularly of key titles. WotC may not be able to put an end to piracy, but that's not likely the goal. The goal is to change the trend.

You have no evidence for this position. Moreover, if such evidence did exist, you're hoping that WotC will eventually share evidence for this position. And you just said that stopping piracy was not possible. Reducing piracy by preventing legitimate purchases is nonsensical; the demand for their pdfs has no place to go BUT to the black market. Imagine if a DM said that the monarch was shutting the city marketplace to fight smuggling. As a player, you would assume that the monarch had intelligence as his dump stat.

You have faith that they have evidence that you don't have. But since their strategy is so obviously flawed, you can understand why most customers would not have your faith that they have the evidence that will make it possible for them to construct a plan to fight piracy that no other company has been able to pull off.

But 4E Has Already Been Pirated!

Yeah, it's too late for the PHB, MM, DMG, and PHB2. But it's not too late for the MM2, the PHB3, or any number of other strong titles. It's still early in the 4E life cycle.

You're begging the question. It's too late for the MM2 and the PHB 3 too, as they'll be pirated as soon as they're available. The point is that such piracy is evidence that it's ridiculously easy to create copies. You can't reduce piracy by driving up demand for blackmarket goods. You attack the pirates and you drive down demand for their services through features, quality, and reliability.

But I Didn't Get to Download My Purchase Five Times!

It's been less than 24 hours since this was announced, and clearly it took the resellers by surprise. Take a deep breath. I'd bet money that they and WotC will make a good effort to reimburse anyone who wasn't able to download their purchases or redownload a lost file. WotC obviously did this because they had big fish to fry--not because they want to steal your pennies.

So, with no evidence, you assert that WotC will be reimbursing people. How much compensation will they be giving customers for lost access to an online storage facility for their gaming materials? Or are you really betting that WotC will be off-loading the cost onto small businesses like Paizo and RPGNow? 'Cause I'd take the former bet, but not the latter. After the GSL, I'm completely confident that WotC would let other people pick up the tab for their choices.

But Bad WotC Didn't Give Us Any Warning!

I'm not a legal expert, and I have no special info on this issue, but I bet it's no coincidence that this happened within hours of the lawsuits being filed. I bet WotC needed to get all their ducks in a row--and all their court summons served--before tipping their hand to organized pirates. The lack of warning was probably a specific tactical move--not a PR fumble. That might suck for us, but it's no reason to heap vitriol on WotC.

So your best defense is that WotC was more concerned with vengeance than they were with their customers?

But . . . But . . . I Like PDFs!

Yeah, me too. But in the grand scheme of things-I-want-to-buy-that-are-no-longer-sold, this is really not that big a deal.

Really? It's not a big deal when a superior technology is abandoned? You don't think that DnD becoming MORE technologically backward as it attempts to compete with World of Warcraft and videogames might be a sea-change in the health of our hobby?

Seriously, would you really react like this if you went into The Home Depot for a string trimmer and found out it wasn't sold any more? Those evil bastards at Black & Decker! They've lost this customer forever!!!

Wrong metaphor. The equivalent would be if Black & Decker said without warning or defensible reason that they would no longer honor any warranties for their product's loss or damage, because you purchased through Home Depot online, rather than at a brick and mortar store. And that would piss me off to lose something valuable (peace of mind) for no good reason.

Look. You seem like a nice guy who has experience with the company. I just want you to think about why nice people who don't have experience with the company might be outraged about this decision.
 

xechnao

First Post
...Stopping piracy...
Many(most) people seem confident that there will not be such an effect on piracy.

For 3.5e, but not when it first came out. As I recall, they were full price (no discount at all) and came out a couple of years into the system's release, when 3.5e was already on the slope downwards. They tested the water first, and only started releasing pdf books at about the same time as the official release date quite late.

Perhaps this is what they wanted with 4e too (pdf support during the downturn). But since 3.xe was present they decided that would not seem so good for 4e on behalf of its premise so far (that is till 4e got more grounded: say for example the launch of PHB II and a considerable amount of DDI subscriptions.

Either this or they want to bring pdf service in-house.
 

coyote6

Adventurer
Not really.

It would not have been appropriate for WotC to communicate with the general public before they discussed things with the vendors, and given the vendors time to get their ducks in a row for the inevitable questions. A vendor reacted before WotC could then communicate with the public. Even if WotC had planned this level of communication, they weren't allowed it. WotC management probably heard about the action after we did - such is the nature of news on the internet.

So, WotC has probably been playing catch-up. And, it if wasn't WotC's action that caused the problem, it makes seven kinds of sense (and is far more professional) for them to not talk until the vendor spoke first.

I'm not sure I agree with that reasoning -- Paizo and DTRPG/RPGNow both took down the WotC PDFs at about the same time, so they both must have misinterpreted WotC's request. Given that they are the only vendors around, IIRC, then it seems like 100% of whom WotC communicated with misunderstood their communication.

Personally, if I say something to people, and everybody misunderstands me, I tend to suspect that I didn't phrase it very well. :)
 
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Wicht

Hero
But, but, that means that ... WOTC isn't the evil bastards that everyone keeps repeating that they are. That means, err, *shudder* someone made a mistake and WOTC had nothing to with it. Naw, can't be. You can't fool me. WOTC is just out to screw gamers and make a quick buck in the meantime. It's not like anyone would try to cash in on the ill will generated to make a quick buck, would they?

Firstly, the quote does not really seem to lay blame for the miscommunication on either party so it strikes me as a bit of an assumption to blame the listener and not the messenger.

Secondly, the miscommunication was over a period of 24 hours. Paizo worked as quick as possible to alert their customers and it still was too little time for some in Europpe who woke up to find their buying plans for the day had been altered and they had precious few hours to make sure their files were backed up.

It seems strange to say that WotC had nothing to do with this recent fiasco when it was their decision to pull the PDFs. And they were only at the most going to allow a 24 hour window to make the announcement.

Lastly, if one company makes a mistake and a second company profits from it, its normally the fault of the first company. You seem to be implying that there is something unethical in Paizo and Green Ronin and White Wolf making announcements that they are happy to sell PDFs and will even give a discount on them this month. I fail to see what's unethical or below the belt in these announcements. It cheats no one and it insults no one.
 

Harlekin

First Post
I'm not sure I agree with that reasoning -- Paizo and DTRPG/RPGNow both took down the WotC PDFs at about the same time, so they both must have misinterpreted WotC's request.

I don't think that this statement accurately represents what happened. To me it seems that Paizo correctly understood wizard's request, informed their customers and orderly removed all the files after a short grace period. And made a killing in the process.

OTOH RPGNow removed files without any warning. Had they correctly interpreted Wizards request and given every customer 24h to download backup copies and to make purchases, some customers would certainly have felt less cheated.
 

Obryn

Hero
Lastly, if one company makes a mistake and a second company profits from it, its normally the fault of the first company. You seem to be implying that there is something unethical in Paizo and Green Ronin and White Wolf making announcements that they are happy to sell PDFs and will even give a discount on them this month. I fail to see what's unethical or below the belt in these announcements. It cheats no one and it insults no one.
Someone will have to fill in the blanks, but isn't there a relationship between DTRPG and White Wolf? Or at least people involved in both businesses? I'm not wearing my tinfoil hat at the moment, can't remember for sure, and can't even muster up the belief that it's relevant. (Specifically, I think that it's silly to believe someone would willfully misinterpret an email in order to give out free things on another website. That's crazy.)

Regardless, I agree that it's only logical that competitors will jump on this. It's the way the market works. WotC made a mistake, other folks profit.

It's one of the reasons my forehead is sore. I've been smacking it for two days now.

-O
 

Most downloaders wouldn't even know how to do this, most don't care to do it. Heck, most _can't_ do it. (How do I remove the watermark from my Pathfinder Beta PDF? I have a vague idea to begin with, but I am actually working professionally with PDF and related technologies!)

So yes, going after 8 specific "pirates" might be exactly what you need to do. Especially if you have reasonable information suggesting that they were the primary source, possibly in more than one case. (Though I don't know if that's also true.)

And if these 8 (or just some of them) are convicted, it becomes clearer to the pirates that there is a real threat of getting caught.

The note about Pathfinder is of interest here.

The .pdfs of 4E D&D books (and DDI subscription content) have had their watermarks removed within an hour or so of the book releases on RPGNow and been up on torrents and rapidshare for distribution.

For the first year or so of Pathfinder (and for Dungeon/Dragon before that) this was pretty much the case with Paizo's .pdfs as well. About half a year ago (I think after the the release of Pathfinder beta, but I'm not really positive as this is second-hand information and I don't play Pathfinder) in one fell swoop, Paizo banned the accounts and credit cards of a number of users they had determined were pirating their material, and changed their watermarking system.

Since that time there have been no (to my knowledge) 'releases' of any Paizo products to the pirating community. The new system can't be cracked by the old methods, and it requires too many seperately purchased copies of a product to do a side-by-side comparison and ensure that all of the watermarks and identifying features have been removed.

To add to that, Paizo has been fairly quick about issuing Cease and Desist orders to the uploaders of .torrents of their products, keeping those .pdfs released before the watermarking change out of easy distribution.

Now, Pathfinder is a bit of a niche product, so it may be that the pirating community isn't devoting as much attention to cracking Paizo's protection.

Accepting that caveat, though, Pathfinder has managed to be successful in preventing the piracy of their products, without stopping sales of their .pdf or filing any lawsuits.
 

caudor

Adventurer
Wow, I can't believe this is happening. I'm taking a break from D&D (both playing & purchasing) until all this blows over.

In the meantime, I can get my adventure fix by playing World of Warcraft or something.

Having gone the straight and narrow route myself, I kinda feel betrayed by this move. When it comes to shooting themselves in the foot, WotC is proving to be quite a sharpshooter.
 

Fenes

First Post
Accepting that caveat, though, Pathfinder has managed to be successful in preventing the piracy of their products, without stopping sales of their .pdf or filing any lawsuits.

Paizo also offers a very good deal on PDFs. As an example: If you subscribe to their adventure path then the PDFs are free with the book purchase.
 

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