Gloomwrought and Sigil

*Disclaimer*: please do not turn this into a edition war. Not the point. Pretend that this is an alternative dimension of the multiverse.

I was flipping through my 4E Manual of the Planes because Gloomwrought is probably on some of my groups way in the future.

Two features of this city seem to have been stolen straight from Sigil.

"The city constantly shifts and changes, as if alive" - since my first run on the CRPG Planescape Torment I was under impression that this is a Sigil feature. I remember Nameless One helping a wall to give birth to pass from a place to another. If I record well, I've read somewhere that is said Sigil's size changes, according to Her Serenity will. These features seem to have been removed from Sigil and givem to Glommwrought.

"These strange beings are constantly busy, apparently keeping the city in working order" - the Keepers work like the Dabus. They keep the city working, speak mostly among themselves and don't engage combat. Again, no Dabus are mentioned on fourth edition Sigil.

I think they needed to make Gloomwrought interesting and maybe the city designer was uninspired at the moment (it happens) or had some own nice ideas too close to what Sigil is (maybe in his/her home campaign) and Wotc decided to give it to the city, in hope it becomes popular.

Problem is Sigil was left a bit empty of its cool things (commerce is city of brass now, and cosmopolitan is hastavar or something like that) in name of making other planar cities attractive to new players.

As DMG2 is having Sigil as main hub I'd like to ask Wotc designers who read these boards to introduce a bit of these things back and give back to the Big Donut a bit more of it's AD&D glory.

Old players are still around and buying, you know

In one of the design articles I seem to remember a designer (can't remember who) stating Gloomwrought was inspired by the movie, Dark City. Both of these are features of the location featured in that film.

There isn't enough info in the Manual of the Planes to let us know whether the Dabus still exist or not. Or whether or not Sigil is still changeable in that fashion. I guess we will find out for sure when the DMG2 is released.

It will be interesting to see what traits they give the city. Perhaps being a "City of Portals" is enough for what they have in mind.

While pre-4e the Keepers were inspired by Dark City, in 4e they and Gloomwrought pretty much are Dark City. I'm not really sure how I feel about it to be honest (since it largely ditches what I'd written on the Keepers).

As for Sigil, I'm not too concerned, since it is, as far as I'm concerned, a different Sigil in a different setting entirely. Any changes done to it won't matter to me as much as say, what happened to FR. Assuming the DMG2 version of a 4e Sigil is well written and seems to have been reworked from a perspective of understanding the place from prior editions.

Ah, but maybe the Keepers of Gloomwrought have a sinister purpose analogous to the Keepers of The Citadel in Mass Effect?

alleynbard said:

Perhaps being a "City of Portals" is enough for what they have in mind.

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That would be like getting Mona Lisa and painting it again using only 3 colors

Personally those things were never what I felt big for Sigil to me, Sigil is defined by:

• Sigil being "The City of Doors" and its portals.
• Its abundance of weird beings, items and creatures all existing in Sigil. While maybe not in peace (I never imagine Sigil as cosmopolitan) at least not clogging up the mechanics of running the city.
• Lady of Pain, while not always physically present she is always a force in Sigil.
• Trade in not general goods (in a planar sense) like City of Brass but in things you need to dig for. Going into the alley and talking to the fences of Sigil to find the heart of a star, the eye of a god, that kind of thing.
• The Factions.

Having never read PS material, Sigil always seemed to me to be a neutral ground, diplomacy/intrigue city. You can generally do what you want, but the few rules in place are strictly and brutally enforced (kind of like Nexus from Exalted). I've generally imagined it'd have lots of gates/portals to various places.

I cannot say I would consider Sigil cosmopolitan either. By far the biggest wards are the lower ward which to me should look like early industrial cities (smog covering everything, people dying young from the filth) and the Hive which is worse than any slum on earth. What makes Sigil special to me is the factions, the outsiders and the fact that it is a hotbed of political activity beyond even the factions. Certainly the Lady's, Guildhall/Clerk wards can look cosmopolitan but they can never match Hestavar. I will agree that Gloomwrought does seem similar in those aspects but it should have a very different mood.

Sigil always seemed to me like a giant interplanar flea market more than anything else. It never really seems particularly clean, safe or welcoming, but you can find anything in there. Not large quantities of goods, mind you, but answers or the odd bit you need for your quest.

Joshua Randall said:

Ah, but maybe the Keepers of Gloomwrought have a sinister purpose analogous to the Keepers of The Citadel in Mass Effect?

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I visualize a resurrected primordial:

[font=fixedsys, courier]Your words are as empty as your future. I am the vanguard of your destruction. This exchange is over.[/font]