How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

Fourth Edition had gotten rid of almost all the problems that had been plaguing me during Third Edition. However, there was one new problem that marred my enjoyment of the new game and still bugs me to this day: the removal of utility magic. I had been hoping that Arcane Power would introduce elements that would relieve my discontentment, but after taking some time to look through it in the store tody I found that it did no such thing.

In Third Edition martial characters had a few options: Attack, Full Attack, Charge and Bullrush, Disarm, Trip, Sunder, and a few class features (Rage for the Barbarian, Sneak Attack for the Rogue, etc.). By contrast spellcasters, especially arcane spellcasters, got a few spells at first level with different types of applications. Spellcasters were the "glass cannons" that the martial characters protected at low levels. By the time the party reached high levels the martial characters were merely tag-alongs that followed the unstoppable god-kings that were the spellcasters. Not only did the spellcasters' offensive capabilities render the martial characters nearly useless in combat, but various other spells could render the out-of-combat specialties of non-spellcasters useless. There were various other problems as well, such as the amount of time it would take to resolve the effects of spells.

Come Fourth Edition every class received a similar number of powers. Martial characters finally have more to do during combat and are on even-footing with spellcasters, and that's fanastic. However, I can't help but feel disappointed somewhat. Sure, Third Edition spellcasters were far too powerful compared to their companions in the party, but with Fourth Edition I feel like the designers have gone a smidgen too far in the opposite direction. I feel like their capability in combat is where it should be, but I can't help but miss the types of spells that could be used in creative, novel ways.

I think a big part of the problem I've having stems from the fact that Third Edition suffered from Multiple Personality Disorder. Dungeons and Dragons to me is about teams of fantasy-archetype characters doing battle with the forces of evil. Despite this the game has included types of spells that can be used for applications other than combat. The reason for this is because the game was also meant to be a simulation of fantasy media. In my opinion this may have been an error in terms of game balance: It's strange when a game of team-based combat has certain party members whose capabilities are far greater than his peers. However, it's consistent with fantasy media for spellcasters to have such great power. After all, whom is more impressive: A dark champion of great martial prowess who can defeat thousands of oncoming soldiers by himself, or an archwizard who can stand on top of the tower he had built in a day by bound elementals and cause an entire army to turn to stone with a wish? Which one of these two is more likely to be the villain of a campaign and which is more likely to be his subordinate?

Fourth Edition finally decided to break tradition and focused on the game's core concept: teams of fantasy-archetypes killing monsters and looting treasure. The designers essentially shucked off many of the simulationist elements of Dungeons and Dragons (especially non-combat spells) in order to make a more gamist system. I don't think this is a negative thing: it makes sense that a game, especially one centering on combat, would be designed with a gamist philosophy.

Where does that leave me, though? I miss the unique and creative non-combat spells, but at the same time I recognize that they caused more harm than good to the game as a whole. I'm not sure what I could do to satisfy my craving for more magic, but then again maybe I'm putting too much importance on versatile magic in the first place.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Kask

First Post
Hmm. Well I bought it and our group tried it. The consensus was that magic that had been with D&D MUs since the beginning was toast and all classes were now "MUs". We decided to drop 4.0 except as something to play when we occasionally got burned out playing D&D.
 


fanboy2000

Adventurer
I think that you are placing the right amount of importance on non-combat magic. I think, however, you are forgetting a few things about 4th.

Prestidigitation: The best thing, flavor wise, about wizards in 4th is that Prestidigitation is an at-will power. I know a guy who, after every combat, uses Prestidigitation to clean his clothes. Tea cold? Prestidigitation. Table at the Inn dirty? Prestidigitation. Want to impress some peasant with magic? Prestidigitation.

Rituals: You haven't forgotten about the new home of Raise Dead, Shadow Walk, Passwall, Comprehend Language, Traveler's Feast, have you?

Utility Powers: The home of Dimension Door, Spectral Hound, and that paragon of non-combat spells: Mordenkainen's Mansion.

All 4th did was take the non-combat spells and divide them up among new categories.
 
Last edited:

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
4th Edition Combat Magic does not include all magic. Rituals add most of what you seem to be missing.
This,

To the OP: If you have a 3e spell that you want to re-introduce it make it a ritual and if you are not too bothered about balance then shorten the casting times of the rituals to rounds and minutes. This would make some of them avialable in combat, although with considerable risk of interruption.
I know there is no concentration but you could use endurance or even attacks against the caster's will defense in conbination with the 3e or earlier concentration rules adapted to what ever mechanism you choose.
 
Last edited:

Cadfan

First Post
Its hard for me to comment without knowing which spells you considered important "utility" spells.

Some of the spells you might call "utility" I really liked. Some of them are rituals now. Some I really hated. Some I think destroyed the creativity that everyone attributes to them by rendering actually creative solutions irrelevant in comparison with spells that functioned as victory buttons. None of it really affected my view of the game as simulationist or non simulationist, since other than a little bit in Eberron, magic never seemed to be taken to logical conclusions.
 

Mallus

Legend
Put it this way, 3.5e style magic was very important in our long-running 3.5e campaign. There was a lot of creative, if not full-on insane magic used to solve problems in that game, despite my initial (and foolish) notion of running a lower-magic game.

But our new 4e campaign gets on fine without it. We still find creative, if not full-on insane, solutions to problems. But they don't all originate from the fellow with the pointy hat...
 

alleynbard

First Post
Did you happen to see the response I gave in that previous thread? It follows pretty much everything that has already been said but, here it is:

I was the same way at first. I really struggled with this. I am not going to lie, it took a fundamental shift in the way I thought about these classes before it clicked.

The one way to preserve caster flexibility is through rituals. I know it is not a perfect fix, but it is a pretty good one. While anyone can become a ritual caster the spell casting classes get it for free. Wizards even gain bonus rituals starting at 5th level.

It took me a while to convince my players that they should be using their rituals. But now we get at least one Tenser's Floating Disk every session. I can't wait to see Amanuesis (which is essentially the old Scribe spell) in action.

I am encouraging the use of rituals by giving out a few rituals for free, mostly through enemy ritual books. I stray slightly outside the wealth guidelines to make it happen, but that is a trade-off I am willing to make. I do make sure I read each ritual carefully before I place it in a treasure hoard.

Some of this tactic is to just get the players used to the idea of rituals. Once that is achieved I think they will see, and I will see, that wizards (and other spellcasters) can still be remarkably flexible classes without being overpowering. Kind of the "first hit is free" tactic that I hope will encourage ritual purchasing in the future.

Or was this not what you were looking for?
 
Last edited:

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
Prestidigitation: The best thing, flavor wise, about wizards in 4th is that Prestidigitation is an at-will power. I know a guy who, after every combat, uses Prestidigitation to clean his clothes. Tea cold? Prestidigitation. Table at the Inn dirty? Prestidigitation. Want to impress some peasant with magic? Prestidigitation.

Sounds fantastic.

And that's just four examples.

Really, the fun is only limited by your ability to think up creative new ways to use this one spell.
 

alleynbard

First Post
Some of the utility powers might also be more easily used outside of combat, depending on the power and the situation.

Arcane Power brought back a ton of the old spells in the form of utility and attack powers.
 

Remove ads

Top