How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

Fallen Seraph

First Post
"Umm, guys, the Illithid is saying something I don't understand. I might be deep speech."

"Could you hold him off for 10 minutes while I cast Comprehend Languages."

"Dude, I'm not sure I can hold him off for ten seconds."

"Well, let's hope he also casting a ritual."

"I got a better idea. Why don't you help us kill it, and then you can cast Comprehend Languages and tell us what he said he said after he's dead?"

"Fine. But at that point, will we care?"
Actually not quite like this, but I have had stuff similar to this happen with my ritual usage in games. I find when it comes to stressful situations and such, rituals become a team-game. The person doing performs the ritual while the others help, defend, distract, etc.
 

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Ariosto

First Post
If 4E falls flat for one in this department, I think one easy way to leaven it would be with a selection of "more magical" magic items. Is there any reason that your campaign must be limited to enchantments that serve merely as combat boosts or quantified bonuses to mundane abilities?

One can easily incorporate qualities that keep such treasures from being used so often as to become unbalancing or simply dull.

Set your imagination loose! If that is not still the game's foundation, then it is not worthy of the name of Dungeons & Dragons.
 

Gort said:
Keeping track of all those effects just got very tiresome.
Are you playing the same 4e as everyone else?
Oh no, there is no way that you're going to say that 4E's effect-tracking is more complicated than 3E's and older editions. In 4E, effects remain either until you save against them, or for one round, ending on the initiative count of whomever originated the effect. In previous editions, one had to keep track of how many rounds it had been since a buff was applied to him, the complexity of which grows exponentially as more effects are piled into the combat. Since from mid-levels upwards buffs were the only way for non-full-caster classes to remain relevant in combat, keeping track of effects was functionally a constant hassle in 3.5E above level 7.
 

Ariosto

First Post
Are magicians no longer able to develop new spells via research? As they are limited to but a certain number of powers, it would seem simple enough to let them trade some combat strength for abilities with more creative application.
 


hong

WotC's bitch
Right. In 4E, being able to understand all kinds of weird and wacky languages is not a "spell". It's a permanent ability. It just takes 10 minutes each day to refresh your memory.

In that sense, it's kind of akin to at-will Mage Hand and Ghost Sound.
 

dbm

Savage!
As some others have already posted, skill challenges are one of the places the flexibility you are looking for is found.

As an example, in one game I was playing a Sword Mage who had marked an opponent with his Aegis, and then that opponent ran away and hid. I had terrible Perception, but asked the ref if I could use Arcana to find him via the bond I had to him.

With Wizards, Pretidigitation is a tool kit, and Arcana is the skill to use it in infinite ways during skill challenges. Just give some inventive and evocative description of what your character is doing, the DM assigns a DC based on how 'out there' your action is, and away you go.

Cheers,
Dan
 

GnomeWorks

Adventurer
Oh no, there is no way that you're going to say that 4E's effect-tracking is more complicated than 3E's and older editions.

Why, yes, I do find it more complicated to handle bonuses that change round-to-round over the complication of having effects that last multiple rounds.

One might even call these rapidly-changing bonii... fiddly bits.

*cue dramatic music*
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Why, yes, I do find it more complicated to handle bonuses that change round-to-round over the complication of having effects that last multiple rounds.

It is not particularly complicated to handle these effects. You simply let the players do the bookkeeping for their own characters, rather than trying to keep track of everything yourself. As someone who has played to 13th level with 2 leaders in the group, this has not been an issue.

One might even call these rapidly-changing bonii... fiddly bits.

The plural of bonus is bonae. Hope this helps!
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Why, yes, I do find it more complicated to handle bonuses that change round-to-round over the complication of having effects that last multiple rounds.

That has been my experience as well, particularly with one-shot, pregen character games. For each bonus that pops up, there's no learning curve to it like there is for multi-round durations. You pretty much get one chance to learn the bonuses and apply them before they're gone.

The other problem we encountered was that there were so may conditional benefits with respect to feats (we were playing at 17th level) that it was a real hassle trying to remember and watch for all of the conditions that could be used to trigger a benefit. Mind you, a computer would be able to handle it easily. Short term memory? Not so easily.

I think we'd have had an easier time with long-standing characters that we had developed over time, but I do think one-shot 4e games above a certain level have serious challenges.
 

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