D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Monk/Cleric or Monk/Paladin Build

So I'm jumping into a game and need some help. I've always kinda liked the idea of some Paladin or Cleric who gave up the ways of the sword to serve as monk typish background. Well anyways starting here may work.

I know there are some feats/classes that allow both of these builds to work so I'm hoping you professionals can help me out. Anyways...

Lv 12
Any Race, however I think I'm leaning towards human
No multi class penalty
Most Splat books usable

Help a brotha out.

Honestly, I wouldn't even try to go monk period. Go straight cleric and just don't use weapons. Learn a few spells that enhance your damage. Of course, you'll want to throw a feat or two to make sure your unarmed strike is actually lethal.

The reason I say to stay away from the monk class is because monks have so much difficulty keeping up with the curve already that they usually just hinder any class they are mixed in with. This is not always true, but it is often very true with spellcasting classes because you are trading spell power for an iffy class.

In most cases I've actually seen straight-up fighters make better unarmed combatants than monks because they don't suffer from Multiple-Ability-Dependancy (MAD, for short) and they get a whole lot of feats. If you were going to mix anything with cleric to make an unarmed pugilist I'd throw in two levels of fighter for the BAB and the bonus feats. But, you will effectively lose 2 levels of your cleric progression, and that hurts.

Now, if you want a fun read on how you could make a flurrying cleric - read my sig and show it to your DM. That will get you exactly what you are looking for, I promise.

If you are going to go the monk route, take it all the way, unless you just want a level or two of another supporting class. A level of Wizard/Sorcerer gives you shield and mage armor. A level of Cleric/Druid gives you healing and/or Shield of Faith. At the higher levels though a spell-storing device duplicates those abilities just as well...

Monks shine best at the higher levels, and getting them there in one piece is a challenge.

Nonlethal Force is correct - Monks can be MAD [I like that term btw...], but that can be their strength as well as their weakness.

I built a monk in the LG Campaign who's primary stats were Con, Dex, and Wis. It made making saving throws all the better. He was a scout-type with a high move silent / hide in shadows. He could double as a front-line fighter though (he had weapon finesse - unarmed combat). He just had to be really careful.

If you go the Cleric / Monk route, take at least 3 levels in a Cleric with the Plant Sphere so you get access to Barkskin. That will get you 5 points of AC between the Barkskin and Shield of Faith, and some healing (because self-healing for a monk is pitiful).

If you're dead set on the concept, there is a monk/cleric hybrid PrC in either Complete Warrior or Complete Divine. The abilities always looked a little weak to me, so I never made a build with it, but it looks a lot better than a straight up multiclassed character.

You are definetally working with a difficult concept. Your monk/cleric character will have bad spell casting due to lost cleric levels, won't fight well due to low BAB and low unarmed damage (and flurry is useless until you get to the level where the penalties disappear), won't have the speed and mobility of a straight monk, and will have bad HP. The only thing I can think of that it won't suck at is making saves. A monk/paladin mix will have slightly better BAB and HP, but essentially no casting ability and worse MAD due to Cha.

I would encourage you to pick one specific function that you want this character to excell at, and maybe we can help you find some way to do it.

Cleric 11 / Shiba Protector 1 w/Monk's Belt.

SP gives you Wis to hit and dmg (on top of str), monk's belt gives you Wis to AC and a d6 dmg unarmed. Cleric 11 gives you 6th level spells. Righteous Might, Divine Power, and Divine Favor, and Owl's Wisdom are all good buffs for this build. If you take the Time Domain you can cast Haste as a 3rd lvl spell 1/day.

The feat you might want to go for is Ascetic Knight, from Complete Adventurer. It gives you ongoing unarmed damage as if you're a Monk, and ongoing smite evil (oh, wow) as if you're a Paladin, and you can multiclass freely between the two. The uh, armour thing still looks problematic to me. . .

Or there's the ten level prestige class, Sacred Fist, to be found in Complete Divine. This one is for a Monk/Cleric build, and gives you 8/10 spellcasting levels, good BAB, good Fort and Ref (shrug, beats me), unarmed damage + speed bonus + AC bonus improvements, and a few special abilities. . . like um, three. You've got to go with Stunning Fist and Combat Reflexes, basically. Plus, minimum 1st level divine spellcasting. Oh, and max out Knowledge (Religion) - luckily, that's a class skill for both. You need 8 ranks in that skill, so you'll need a total of 5 levels of Monk (I'd say 2 levels, praobably to start the character with) and Cleric (the next 3). Also, you need Combat Casting. I guess that mightn't be a terrible idea anyway. And hey, a good Wisdom score will help you out for spells, will saves, stunning fist attacks, senses. . . well, you know, all that stuff. Maybe not as awful a combo as it seems on the surface.

Hope that helps. Disclaimer: I'm not that great a 3e powergamer, generally, though I have pretty good insight into some classes and areas. This ain't one (or two or three?) of them.

edit --- mind you, one thing I do know is that giving up spellcasting levels sucks. So, you could go for one level of Monk to begin with, then four of Cleric, and pick up the extra feat (say, Combat Reflexes) at character level 3 (i.e., Cleric level 2). Then, at level 20, you could be casting 9th level Cleric spells. . . though your 'Monkage' might be weaker than you'd like. Eh, I dunno

second edit --- I'll see how it looks, out of curiosity. . .

At 12th level, following the Sacred Fist idea, you'd be Monk 1 / Cleric 4 / Sacred Fist 7. OK. So that's spellcasting level of Cleric 9, giving you 5th level spells. Not too shoddy. If you're human, then because of needing to 'buy' Combat Casting and Combat Reflexes, there are four feats to choose* - could be worse. BAB is +10 - tidy! Flurry +8/+8 - hm. Base Saves: Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +8 - fine. AC bonus is Wis mod + 2. Base movement is 50 ft. Unarmed damage: d10 - bleh (next level: 2d6 - a bit better). Average HP: 57 + (Con mod x 12), assuming it's the standard system.

* check out Superior Unarmed Strike, from the Book of Nine Swords (also titled Tome of Battle) - this would be a no-brainer, because you've lost exactly four levels of Monk, and this will make up the difference. See how your DM feels about Improved Natural Attack, as well. The reason I'm suggesting *two* such feats is because, as a Sacred Fist, you CAN"T use weapons. Well, if you do, you lose access to the prestige class, and that's that. Also, punching for er, 3d6(?) base a hit would be neat, maybe with some Cleric buffing for extra oomph.

Monk/Paladin is arguably the most efficient multi-class for several reasons:
* Wis powers both AC and spells
* each level gives you +1 to all saves; high Cha increases this further
* Decent BAB lets you use weapons, or not, although you're opting "not". (The Paladin BAB is ignored when fighting H2H, but not with improvised weapons.)
* The ability to cast Holy Sword, a pre-requisite for making weapons with the Holy enchantment
* higher HPs

In all seriousness, making a Monk/Cleric might actually be a more effiicient character, if only for the utility of the various Cleric spells and spontaneous healing.

As for race, you can't go wrong with Halfling. Seriously. Despite the reduced damage output, the sheer amount of Monk-compatible bonuses the race gets is worth it.

I second the Sacred Fist recommendation, or if you want a pure philosopher-type, go full caster with the Contemplative from the Complete Divine.

Monk/Paladin could be effective with Ascetic Knight and Serenity(Dragon Compendium pg 106). Monk levels stacking with paladin for unarmed damage and for smite evil damage. Serenity lets you use your wis mod for Paladin abilities. You would get wisdom to AC, saves, DC for stunning fist, smite attacks, and for Lay on Hands. Combine that with the shiba protector for wis to attack and damage. Go with halfing to add in Yondalla's sense from Races of the wild for wis to init. Go with the variant halfling that gets a bonus feat instead of bonus to saves and pick up VoP at 1st level.



You should try to go for saint(template LA +2) also to get your wisdom as insight to AC also. Although this might be taking it to far.

What milo said.
Also, don't forget to be exalted, and take the exalted feat that lets you use wis to attack with simple weapons instead of str. Unarmed strike being a simple weapon.

(And really, if you're gonna do Paladin anyway, might as well bite the bullet and go exalted. Not a big leap.)