What's the benefit of Pinioning Vortex?

Rechan · May 4, 2009

Pinioning Vortex (AP 104) confuses me. I don't see how this power is all that good.

First of all, it lifts the target 2 squares up in the air. So the only way to hit the target is with a ranged attack or a polearm.

Second, the target is only there until the start of their next turn. So, they're there for a half a round, rather than a full round.

Third, they are dazed and immobilized ... until the start of their next turn. So both the dazed AND immobilized condition do not matter at all, because they both end before the target acts. What's the point of conditions coming into place, when they are removed before their effects can come into play?

Fourth, it spells out "It grants combat advantage to you and your allies"... but that's what dazed does. So that's just redundant.

Fifth, the target falls into its old unoccupied square, or the nearest unoccupied square of its choice. So it can choose to fall into a better position than it used to be.

What the heck is this power good for?

James McMurray · May 4, 2009

They probably meant for it to land in its old square if unoccupied or choose a square if it was. That still doesn't help the power much. It does pretty strong damage for a Wizard power though, whcn you factor in the extra d10 from the fall. In the right party (Ranger, Dagger Rogue, Polearm Fighter, Laser Cleric, etc.) it could be pretty sweet against elites and solos, especially the ones without reach of their own.

Rechan · May 4, 2009

James McMurray said:
They probably meant for it to land in its old square if unoccupied or choose a square if it was. That still doesn't help the power much. It does pretty strong damage for a Wizard power though, whcn you factor in the extra d10 from the fall.

If it did falling damage, it'd be nice if it spelled that out, too.

Kwalish Kid · May 4, 2009

Rechan said:
Pinioning Vortex (AP 104) confuses me. I don't see how this power is all that good.

First of all, it lifts the target 2 squares up in the air. So the only way to hit the target is with a ranged attack or a polearm.

Second, the target is only there until the start of their next turn. So, they're there for a half a round, rather than a full round.

It's about control. This effectively removes a creature from the battle temporarily. This changes the control of the battlefield, as the creature no longer takes opportunity attacks. It also gives the defenders, strikers, and anyone else to get in to position below the creature and hold their actions until it hits the ground.

This is the kind of spell that tells me, as a DM, that the creature will probably not survive its turn.

Fourth, it spells out "It grants combat advantage to you and your allies"... but that's what dazed does. So that's just redundant.

Some creatures cannot be dazed.

Rechan · May 4, 2009

Kwalish Kid said:
It's about control. This effectively removes a creature from the battle temporarily. This changes the control of the battlefield, as the creature no longer takes opportunity attacks. It also gives the defenders, strikers, and anyone else to get in to position below the creature and hold their actions until it hits the ground.

It takes it out of play... for half a round. If it was "Until the end of its turn", you'd ahve a point. But the power lasts only from the Wizard's turn to the beginning of the monster's turn. That's not a lot of time for everyone to suddenly rush over and ready their actions.

Some creatures cannot be dazed.

The number of ones that can be are so small that the addition of that sentence is unnecessary.

But again, I say, that the dazed and immobilized condition is redundant since they do nothing.

They end before the monster can take its actions, therefore the conditions do nothing to limit the monster's actions in the first place.

The power would do the exact same thing if the immobilized/dazed conditions were removed from the text. The power would still give CA, the monster would still be in the air until the beginning of its turn.

If the power said "Until the end of the monster's turn..." It would make sense. If it was "Until the end of hte wizard's next turn", it would make sense.

Ending at the beginning makes no sense whatsoever, considering there are conditions in place.

1of3 · May 4, 2009

An ally could grant the creature a move action.

twilsemail · May 4, 2009

I'm AFB at the moment so I can't be sure, but couldn't you just ready the Spell for the Trigger, "When Flopsy takes an action." Then Flopsy is dazed until the start of it's next turn and therefore can take no further actions this turn.

Regicide · May 4, 2009

Rechan said:
Pinioning Vortex (AP 104) confuses me. I don't see how this power is all that good.

First of all, it lifts the target 2 squares up in the air. So the only way to hit the target is with a ranged attack or a polearm.

I'd argue that I'm 2 squares high and could hit the diagonal square. I don't get why AP suddenly starts doing squares high, it's nonsense. A square isn't even 5 feet in 4E, and yet AP is suddenly acting like it's a 3D game and squares are 5 feet.

Whatever. New authors who don't know what they're doing and poor editing lead us to garbage like this. AP has lots of busted things in it. Now I'm wondering if theres any text saying that a slide defaults to horizontal unless otherwise stated, because if not, guess what, I'm sliding everything straight up from now on! That'll do wonders if they're in a zone that damages per square moved, now if you get a slide 5, you can slide them up 5 and then they fall 5 so you get 10 squares out of it! Sweet! :rant:

Rechan said:
Second, the target is only there until the start of their next turn. So, they're there for a half a round, rather than a full round.

The power looks like it is most effective when used as a ready action to completely screw over the monster's turn.

Rechan · May 4, 2009

I'd argue that I'm 2 squares high and could hit the diagonal square. I don't get why AP suddenly starts doing squares high, it's nonsense. A square isn't even 5 feet in 4E, and yet AP is suddenly acting like it's a 3D game and squares are 5 feet.

Levitate: Move 4 squares vertically...

Wall of Fog (and most walls, for that matter): It can be up to 8 squares long and up to 4 squares high.

The power looks like it is most effective when used as a ready action to completely screw over the monster's turn.

I'm reading "readying an action" (PHB 291), and it doesn't seem like that would work.

A readied action is an immediate reaction. The text says "If you want to interrupt an ATTACK, your readied action should be triggered when the monster MOVES." So the monster moves, you attack, it attacks.

If one readied Pinioning Vortex, then they would have to 'ready for the monster to move'. So the monster moves, they hit with teh Vortex, the monster is dazed... and still has its standard action. Since the monster is dazed (and can now take one action), it still has the standard to use.

The power seems so very corner case and limited that I have to decide this was really poor editing or poor design on the author's part.

Regicide · May 5, 2009

Rechan said:
If one readied Pinioning Vortex, then they would have to 'ready for the monster to move'. So the monster moves, they hit with teh Vortex, the monster is dazed... and still has its standard action. Since the monster is dazed (and can now take one action), it still has the standard to use.

It has it's standard, but it's a) dazed, b) immobilized, c) aloft. It's probably not doing much. They'll also fall and end up prone on their next turn which sucks even more for them.

Oh, and looked up slide, it specifically says theres no restriction on direction. Up it is! Slide powers now all get to do a bunch of d10 falling damage and automatic prone! Huzzah!

What's the benefit of Pinioning Vortex?

Rechan

Adventurer

James McMurray

First Post

Rechan

Adventurer

Kwalish Kid

Explorer

Rechan

Adventurer

1of3

Explorer

twilsemail

First Post

Regicide

Banned

Rechan

Adventurer

Regicide

Banned

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