Forked from: Pathfinder - sell me
The above-linked thread rekindled the discussion that we have had a few times already on the overall power level, as well as power differences between the classes in Pathfinder and 3.5E.
Increase in power-level as compared to 3.5E belongs among my main concerns about the Pathfinder RPG. The other top concerns of mine are the potential spread of magic to non-magical classes (I like to keep the magical and the non-magical as separate as possible) and the potential introduction of more gamist concepts such as per-encounter durations and such (which I intensely dislike). There is little evidence of the latter happening, which is good for me, but there is some evidence of the former with Rogues and Barbarians being the main potential culprits based on the beta, though we obviously don't know how the final version will treat them. There is, however, much more evidence for the power-level being jacked up in the Pathfinder RPG.
In some cases, increasing the power-level can actually be useful from the game design perspective. This is the case when it improves the balance among classes. Boosting the Fighter provides a good example of that. At other times, the improvement in flavor thanks to a certain ability is so large that the increase in power may be worthwhile - this may be the case with races having +2 to two ability scores instead of one (though in this case the option of a +2 to one of the two ability scores chosen by the player instead of to both would greatly limit the power boost and achieve much of the same effect).
Much of the time, however, I view the increases in power-level as problematic. One such case in the Pathfinder RPG is hit point inflation. More hit points boost power in a useful (as in powerful) but boring way (so no flavor to help overlook the increase). The hit point increases will also tend to make combats longer, when many of the complaints about high-level play in 3.5E are that combats last too long already.
Another problem is when power increases boost the classes that are already on top of the power-heap. An example is the Wizard (and the Cleric too with Channel Energy, when going against the Undead) in Pathfinder RPG. Already close to the top in terms of power in 3.5E (apart from Clerics and Druids), the Wizard in Pathfinder RPG gets three major boosts:
1) 40% increase in mean (average) hit points from hit dice (d4 upgraded to d6, so 2.5hp increases to 3.5hp on average)
2) A major ability (usually spell-like) every second level
3) An initial ability and a powerful capstone ability based on school (OK, so I admitedly do like the idea of capstones for all classes)
On the whole, I would say this is a bigger boost in power than even the Fighter gets in Pathfinder RPG! Of course, many of the spells are toned-down, so it is not an entirely fair comparison, but some of these changes are gratuitous (the hit dice increase for certain - it is not even targeted at low-level survivability, since the extra hit points accrue over levels).
I understand the notion that there needs to be an incentive to stay with the base class rather than automatically going for prestige classes, but if the spell-like abilities are necessary for this... shouldn't the Wizard lose something to compensate? How about something like maxing out Wizards spells at 3 per spell level rather than 4 per spell level (and doing the same for Clerics)?
Anyway, is there any evidence that in the final version of the Pathfinder RPG some of the power boosts to the powerful classes have been either removed or compensated for by removal or toning down of other features? How about the overall power level (things like hit point inflation and boosts to races) - is this being toned down as well in the final version?
Does anybody have any other thoughts on the matter?
The above-linked thread rekindled the discussion that we have had a few times already on the overall power level, as well as power differences between the classes in Pathfinder and 3.5E.
Increase in power-level as compared to 3.5E belongs among my main concerns about the Pathfinder RPG. The other top concerns of mine are the potential spread of magic to non-magical classes (I like to keep the magical and the non-magical as separate as possible) and the potential introduction of more gamist concepts such as per-encounter durations and such (which I intensely dislike). There is little evidence of the latter happening, which is good for me, but there is some evidence of the former with Rogues and Barbarians being the main potential culprits based on the beta, though we obviously don't know how the final version will treat them. There is, however, much more evidence for the power-level being jacked up in the Pathfinder RPG.
In some cases, increasing the power-level can actually be useful from the game design perspective. This is the case when it improves the balance among classes. Boosting the Fighter provides a good example of that. At other times, the improvement in flavor thanks to a certain ability is so large that the increase in power may be worthwhile - this may be the case with races having +2 to two ability scores instead of one (though in this case the option of a +2 to one of the two ability scores chosen by the player instead of to both would greatly limit the power boost and achieve much of the same effect).
Much of the time, however, I view the increases in power-level as problematic. One such case in the Pathfinder RPG is hit point inflation. More hit points boost power in a useful (as in powerful) but boring way (so no flavor to help overlook the increase). The hit point increases will also tend to make combats longer, when many of the complaints about high-level play in 3.5E are that combats last too long already.
Another problem is when power increases boost the classes that are already on top of the power-heap. An example is the Wizard (and the Cleric too with Channel Energy, when going against the Undead) in Pathfinder RPG. Already close to the top in terms of power in 3.5E (apart from Clerics and Druids), the Wizard in Pathfinder RPG gets three major boosts:
1) 40% increase in mean (average) hit points from hit dice (d4 upgraded to d6, so 2.5hp increases to 3.5hp on average)
2) A major ability (usually spell-like) every second level
3) An initial ability and a powerful capstone ability based on school (OK, so I admitedly do like the idea of capstones for all classes)
On the whole, I would say this is a bigger boost in power than even the Fighter gets in Pathfinder RPG! Of course, many of the spells are toned-down, so it is not an entirely fair comparison, but some of these changes are gratuitous (the hit dice increase for certain - it is not even targeted at low-level survivability, since the extra hit points accrue over levels).
I understand the notion that there needs to be an incentive to stay with the base class rather than automatically going for prestige classes, but if the spell-like abilities are necessary for this... shouldn't the Wizard lose something to compensate? How about something like maxing out Wizards spells at 3 per spell level rather than 4 per spell level (and doing the same for Clerics)?
Anyway, is there any evidence that in the final version of the Pathfinder RPG some of the power boosts to the powerful classes have been either removed or compensated for by removal or toning down of other features? How about the overall power level (things like hit point inflation and boosts to races) - is this being toned down as well in the final version?
Does anybody have any other thoughts on the matter?
GMforPowergamers said:
