Proposal: Things to be nerfed

Oni · May 25, 2009

Sorry, PHB2 feat.

Regarding RoB's 15 dex isn't hard to hit especially with 25 point buy and it's most definately 4 attacks that's been confirmed several times.

Regarding Expertise, games balanced around a roughly 55-65% hit rate, that declines as you go up in level (hence the need for a fix in the first place). You don't have to be a math junkie (I'm definately not) to appreciate the fact that means you're going to miss a very significant amount of the time and in most cases a miss does absolutely nothing, so anything that mitigates that is obviously very powerful without the need to crunch any numbers to prove it. Because accuracy is such a problem for low level casters (because the AC to NAD spread is so low for low level monsters) this feat is pretty much mandatory for them. Anytime I feel something is mandatory to function at a satisfactory level, well it's just kind of a bummer.

Atanatotatos · May 25, 2009

Oh, there it is, echoes of thunder... Yeah I hadn't noticed before, it seems a bit over the board, since if I'm not mistaken it'd stack with itself (and everything else, of course) not being typed.
I'd say making it a power bonus would solve the problem. I'll add it to the list anyway.

Oh, and yeah, Rain of blows is definitely 4 attacks total. I used to think it maxes at 3 too, but if you read it carefully, it's four. The attack line says make two attacks, then the effect (I think) is to make a secondary attack if the first one hits. But you're making two primary attacks in the first place, so if both hit, you have a secondary attack for each of them.
Uhm... maybe I explained it a bit confusedly, but i think it breaks down to that.

Atanatotatos · May 25, 2009

I'd make an example for completeness.
Let's take an Eladrin fighter, lvl 3, with stats Str 16 Dex 15 Con 14(let's stop here, it's enough to make the point) with a +1 bloodclaw greatspear(a lvl 2 item!), and the Eladrin soldier and Weapon expertise feats. He uses Rain of blows, I won't count in any bonuses from flanking or leader powers(that will be there):
+10 to hit, 1d10+9 dmg, two to four times, at the cost of 4 points of damage(out of 41), and an encounter power that he can pull off again on his next turn if he owns a power jewel.
If four attacks hit, with no crit, it's 58 dmg on average I think.
And it's not that unlikely considering, for example, that you might have a Tactlord flanking with you that just used Warlord favor, bringing your to-hit up to +18, for example(average soldier AC at level 3=19).
Isn't it a bit much for a level 3 defender?
Obviously, it gets worse and worse as the character goes up in level and can afford iron armbands of power (they stack), rerolls from items, bonuses to hit of all kind, more hp to use bloodclaw more often, etcetera...

covaithe · May 25, 2009

This is all quite interesting, I'm on the wrong computer at the moment, so I haven't been able to examine the specific things mentioned, but... as a general philosophical point, I'm reluctant to fix balance issues with nerfs. I think in an ideal world, a DM would deal with things like that on the fly, by, say, creating a situation where the user of a bloodclaw weapon had a real choice to make between doing extra damage and keeping health. Or, if your fighter just loves dropping Rain of Blows, fine, let them, but build your encounters so that they're still challenging after one of the monsters gets shredded.

Granted, this isn't an ideal world, but I think we should be really careful about nerfs.

Oni · May 25, 2009

Regarding Echoes of Thunder, consider the following.

It's entirely possible (no need to even jump through any hoops really) to build a character that relies solely on thunder attacks. You can even make your own with Arcane Admixture.

The way the sequence of an attack is layed out this feat applies itself immediately on any thunder attack you use. For instance, you thunder wave someone this turn you apply it, you thunderwave someone next turn you apply it for that use and the previous us, you add in an AP...

The problem is it feeds itself unlike some other similar feats.

elecgraystone · May 25, 2009

Oh, I've read Rain of Blows and it's 3 attacks. If you read page 54 on 'Secondary Target and Secondary Attack' then read the Rain of blows, you see that the secondary attack does NOT say 'if you hit' or 'for each hit you get a secondary attack. It falls under the 'regardless of whether the previous attack hits or misses' secondary attacks. Meaning that if you meet the requirements, you get the secondary attack. I don't know where people got the idea that secondary attacks are based on the number of hits.

To be clear, the attack is this line [Attack: Strength vs. AC, two attacks]. ONE attack where you make two attack rolls. Then after those attack rolls hit or miss if you're 'wielding a light blade, a spear, or a flail and have Dexterity 15 or higher.' you make the secondary attack. Just one. If you think it's per attack roll, please point out where that is written.

As far as 'mid-high level' play, I haven't seen any problems until we get close to 30 [25+], and by that point I expect crazy when we are dealing with immortals having fun.

Oni · May 25, 2009

elecgraystone said:
Oh, I've read Rain of Blows and it's 3 attacks. If you read page 54 on 'Secondary Target and Secondary Attack' then read the Rain of blows, you see that the secondary attack does NOT say 'if you hit' or 'for each hit you get a secondary attack. It falls under the 'regardless of whether the previous attack hits or misses' secondary attacks. Meaning that if you meet the requirements, you get the secondary attack. I don't know where people got the idea that secondary attacks are based on the number of hits.

To be clear, the attack is this line [Attack: Strength vs. AC, two attacks]. ONE attack where you make two attack rolls. Then after those attack rolls hit or miss if you're 'wielding a light blade, a spear, or a flail and have Dexterity 15 or higher.' you make the secondary attack. Just one. If you think it's per attack roll, please point out where that is written.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...-stand-up-clarify-rain-blows.html#post4646316

See also the how to read a power clarifications at the back of PHB2.

Atanatotatos · May 25, 2009

1.Read the attack line.
2.Read the effect line.
3.Read the attack line again, because it's two attacks.
4.Read the effect line again, because it's two attacks.

To me, the result was 4 attacks. Actually, even if it was 3, it still might be too powerful.

The Digger · May 26, 2009

I'm afraid I'm with elec with this Ata (I still love ya really tho'!)

Attack: make 2 attacks
If Dex 15 etc etc (hit or miss with main attack irrelevant) make secondary attack

I know this will never be resolved so I don't know why I bothered posting.

Atanatotatos · May 26, 2009

I love ya too digger! :heh:

And as I said, I used to think that way too, really, so I understand that. But it's been clarified by semi-official sources too... (I think oni posted a link)