Proposal: Things to be nerfed

Tinwe · May 27, 2009

As was helpfully pointed out in the thread you linked, -6 OoI at lvl 11 requires gimping your character or the use of a Daily item power. Ruling that the Spider familiar affects the save penalty on anything besides Slow and Immobilize conditions is just poor logic on the part of the DM. In the same way, ruling that Earthroot staff applies a save penalty to the Unconcious condition of Sleep, the Helpless condition of Face of Death or the Stun of Prismatic Spray is pretty cheesy.

If the DMs are set on parsing powers with the most liberal mindset possible, you can ban all you want and the game will still be broken.

Edit:

Hurm...multi-class Invoker and take the Hammer of Wrath PP for another -2

If you're worried you're penalty isn't strong enough for a true lock down you could pick up Demand Justice from the Invoker while you're at it, just in case.

Also Elites only get +2 to saving throws, Solos get +5.

MC Invoker is a better option than MC Swordmage, but only because of Demand Justice. The save penalty remains the same because you're simply trading Fate-Spurned Foe for a always-on -2 to saves Aura 5. And yes, you're totally right about the elite vs. solo... my bad.

Oni · May 27, 2009

When you've got a shared setting like this you do need some rule consensus outside DM logic IMO, because you want consistency across the board.

For instance as written the Earthroot Staff does apply to sleep which is a major offender as far as lockdown spells go. You might say it's not in the spirit of what's intended or poor logic to allow it, but that is the way it is written.

Also even if you cannot achieve true lock down, if your put up such a large penalty that the BBEG can only escape a small percentage of the time you've busted the encounter. If a DM is having to specifically build encounters or alter encounters on account of one character there is an issue, this is the reason the Battlerager got whacked with the nerf bat.

Also keep in mind L4W is 25 point buy, so you could go with a Deva or Elf and hit a 16,17,12,12,10,8 stat spread before stat bumps and with racials not sweat accuracy really. The 25 point buy may have been a poor choice in hindsight because so much of what you can do is based around your stat spread, and it takes away some harder decisions (on the other hand I probably wouldn't have made Magnus if it weren't 25 point buy so I won't complain too much)

Tinwe · May 27, 2009

Your first and third points are well-taken, but I still disagree here:

For instance as written the Earthroot Staff does apply to sleep which is a major offender as far as lockdown spells go.

Earthroot Staff grants a save penalty equal to its enhancement on your powers that impose the slowed, immobilized, petrified or restrained conditions. Sleep has two parts: a save-ends Slowed, followed by a save-ends Unconscious. If you were to rule that the penalty applies to both the Slow and the Unconscious, I wouldn't say you're *wrong*, but I do think that is a liberal and potentially detrimental reading.

Atanatotatos · May 27, 2009

Tinwe, it's actually you who is nerfing implicitly a lot of items, because, as Oni pointed out, they work that way. So I think it's simpler to just type the penalties to saves they give, and the problem is mostly gone.
As for earthroot staff, remember that a creature has to fail the save vs slow to later become unconscious, so it does contribute significantly to the lockdown.
And it's not just about sleep anyway, there are a ton of spells that can effectively lockdown a creature without stunning it or knocking it unconscious. Like most brutes, when immobilized, are effectively out of the play. Even slow in the right conditions can put a creature out of an encounter. So any condition that effectively cannot be saved against is broken enough to me.

Tinwe · May 27, 2009

Atanatotatos said:
Tinwe, it's actually you who is nerfing implicitly a lot of items, because, as Oni pointed out, they work that way.

Yeah, I find that sensible rule interpretations often tend to "implicitly nerf" things that are overpowered.

So I think it's simpler to just type the penalties to saves they give, and the problem is mostly gone.

Not really. "Typing" penalties removes only -3 (-2 from cunning weapon and -1 from phrenic helm). The wizard continues to hold the Earthroot staff offhand and picks up the Orb of Inescapable Consequences. Now he's dealing 3 less in save penalties, but he has an auto-hit with sleep 1/day, is still nearly assured of "locking" a Solo (with -1 familiar, -2 spell focus, -2 staff, -2 aura, -6 OoI = -13), and you've arguably made him more of as beast by "nerfing" his item bonuses.

Obviously we're not going to convince the other, so I'll stop arguing. If you see the Orb Wizard as a problem that needs fixing, then the place to do it is Orb of Imposition.

Atanatotatos · May 27, 2009

...I don't understand. Typed penalties wouldn't stack. So you can only have, say, one penalty each from power, feat, or item penalties. So you wouldn't be able to stack, say, OOI and a penalty from a power or aura (power bonus), or from spell focus and the familiar (feat bonus).
This way seems a significant nerf. (without completely thrashing the feature)

elecgraystone · May 28, 2009

Atanatotatos said:
But it's been clarified by semi-official sources too... (I think oni posted a link)

The issue I have with the link oni posted is that it is unofficial and the fact is the cust service can't be trusted in the least. I've see TOO many conflicting answers from them.

Until I see it errata'd, I don't see 4 attacks. It does NOT follow the secondary attack being dependant on the primary attack because it's not indented as per PHB2 rules oni. As such, the only requirements for the attack is the prereq's listed under the secondary attack. As such, by RAW it's only 3 attacks.

On the subject of orb wizard, I have a dislike of them. I don't like building a character around one power then going to take a nap until it comes back. The whole lock-down is cheesy. The fact that sleep is a 1st level spell you keep until you are 30th is proof something is wrong.

This is one of the few area I'll help with the nerf bat!

Atanatotatos · May 28, 2009

Now, not to insist, but people do keep Rain of blows all the way...

elecgraystone · May 28, 2009

Most likely the people wrongly making 4 attacks...

Atanatotatos · May 28, 2009

With 3 attacks it's still way more damaging than most higher level powers. For example, those three attacks will undoubtedly deal more damage than the 29th lvl daily No mercy, a [7W] power...
It's a general rule, multiple attacks trump "big" attacks in damage because of damage modifiers, the problem lies in the fact that one of the best of them is gained at 3rd lvl...