Proposal: Things to be nerfed

Ozymandias79 · May 28, 2009

OK,just like the emminent covaithe posted beföre me, I am also against nerfing.

I also have nothing against RRoT, I actually like it and see it as a carrot for people to take the war god as their patron god. :devil:

OZYmandias79

elecgraystone · May 28, 2009

Ah... Have you looked at level 29 attack Catastrophic Flurry? [martial] 3 attacks of 2w Plus extra damage if you hit twice and MORE if you hit 3 times. How is Rain of blows better a three 1w attacks? I'm confused. :erm:

Even looking at Rain of blows vs No mercy, your playing a FAR different game if you do more damage with Rain of blows. This is even more true when hitting those high level monsters with very high AC. If you miss 2 out of 3 times with Rain of blows you do 1w while the reliable No mercy does 7w.

Atanatotatos · May 28, 2009

Catastrophic flurry is, in fact, a multiattack power, and herein superior to "big" attacks (I mean powers with big W multipliers, like No Mercy).
And yeah, of course you can miss on four attacks in a row, too, but seriously, you're making it sound like the 29th lvl daily power is good to "play it safe", while the 3rd lvl encounter is the real damage dealer.
That's the thing. The sole fact that they can be compared...tells a lot. IMHO.

EDIT:And let me stress this out again. It's not the W that makes the majority of damage at mid-high levels and up. It's the static modifiers. Stuff like iron armbands, weapon focus, bloodclaw weapons, pitfighter's Wisdom, etcetera. That's why Rain of Blows will deal more damage than a 7W power, because you can stack those huge modifiers 3-4 times.

JoeNotCharles · May 28, 2009

Holy crap, Consecrated Ground: L5 Cleric Daily, restores hit points whenever you start your turn in it and you're bloodied. So far so good. Except that it's "regain hit points", not "regenerate" (which stops working as soon as you're at 0) so it works even when you're dying. And by the healing rules, if you're healed while dying, you go up to 0 hp and then regain the given number of hit points. So even if it's only recharging 1 hp per round, it makes you unkillable - you're dropped to -ve hp, fall down in the zone, and when your turn begins you're automatically back at 1 hp and just prone.

I could live with that, except that the obvious tactic - kill the cleric so they can't sustain the zone - won't work. The zone doesn't disappear until the end of the turn that the cleric fails to sustain it, so if the cleric is knocked below 0, on the beginning of their turn the zone heals them and then they can sustain it again.

The drawbacks to relying on the zone are: it's pretty small, and you're only safe while you're in it, and the cleric can't move it very fast. So if you're in an open map with mobile enemies who can hit and run, it's really hampering to have to stay in it. But if you can set it up at a choke point and set your defender and your cleric inside it so nobody can pass, it's ridiculous.

I don't object to the idea that this can bring people back from dying, although that's pretty powerful. What I object to is the self-perpetuating circle where you target the cleric to take out the zone, but the zone heals the cleric so you can't take them out... It just feels really cheesy.

So I can think of two ways to fix this:

1. Add a clause saying that the zone only grants hp if you are bloodied and above 0 hp (like regeneration). That would make it much less powerful, just a lasting source of moderate healing.

2. Declare that the zone (and possibly all powers that must be sustained) ends if the caster is knocked unconscious. That way it can raise everyone from dying, except the cleric. When you have Consecrated Ground on, it becomes vital to protect your cleric. I like this because it's gives more of a tactical edge to having the zone.

CaBaNa · May 28, 2009

Don't Nerf things... :rant:

it's more to memorize, and I like being overpowered. The DM can overpower the adventure to match.

That said, option 2 on consecrated ground I think is how it works already. Zones disappear if their caster dies or moves out of range.

Giving all manner of options to remove the ground, pull the cleric out, push out, slide out, kill, stun, so on... :devil:

Much should be said for the cleverness of a DM.

JoeNotCharles · May 28, 2009

Knocking unconscious is not dying, though. By the rules, it only disappears when the caster dies (fails the third death save or hits a large negative hp), not when they're dying.

Although I always play that all sustains end when you go unconscious, because it adds more drama that way - even if you've got a good enough source of healing that you can bounce back from unconsciousness easily, it gives you a good reason to avoid it.

Atanatotatos · May 28, 2009

It doesn't seem so powerful to me. It's a small zone, it has to be sustained, and 1+Cha mod is not much healing... I wouldn't count on it to survive a really bad situation.

Tinwe · May 28, 2009

If the Cleric is really worried, he drops Beacon of Hope prior to Consecrated Ground to heal 6+Cha for the duration of the fight.

elecgraystone · May 28, 2009

Atanatotatos said:
And yeah, of course you can miss on four attacks in a row, too, but seriously, you're making it sound like the 29th lvl daily power is good to "play it safe", while the 3rd lvl encounter is the real damage dealer.

You remember what I said about spreadsheets? Well this is one of those moments. In play, I've found a reliable big damage powers does more damage over the life of your character than a multi-attack power that does more damage if all attacks hit. Yes on paper you do more damage, but on the game table not so much. Unless you have a way to make sure you hit everytime that I don't know of.

Tinwe · May 28, 2009

elecgraystone said:
In play, I've found a reliable big damage powers does more damage over the life of your character than a multi-attack power that does more damage if all attacks hit.

Not to be disagreeable, but I'm pretty sure that if the multiattack power is doing less damage than the large [W] power does, you aren't making good enough use of static bonuses.

Everything comes at an opportunity cost, too. If you miss an attack with Rain of Blows... meh, you should expect to miss at least once. If you miss with a good ol' reliable daily, then sure... you get to use it again next turn, but meanwhile the fighter who landed 2 of 3 hits last turn is off Dual Striking for 2x 1[W] + mods. Now your big attack has to catch up to 4x 1[W] + mods. You can't just say "This'll hit eventually, and it'll do more damage than that puny RoB". The modifiers you add to multiattacks are just stupid huge at high level.