Proposal: Things to be nerfed - Page 6




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  1. #51
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    Ignore Atanatotatos
    What do you mean, you don't know ways of being (kinda) sure to hit? Just have your tactlord drop a warlord favor(or similar power) for a huge bonus to hit, flank, use an action point to get the tactical presence bonus, and action surge bonus if you're a human. At level 3 this would be somewhere near +13 to hit(on top of your own bonus, of course).
    I know this is a pretty specific example, but the higher the level, the more the ways to improve your to-hit when you really want to.
    Now I know you're going to say: "hey, but weren't you complaining about the difficulty to hit at higher level?"
    Well, true, but that is a problem on "normal" attacks(where you don't have a bonus from an ally, most of the time), especially if you don't know well what you're doing. The problem is, a player that know how to abuse these things will probably never really have a problem with hitting, but a player that doesn't know the game all that well, will. That's how I see it, anyway.
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    Anostor Duran in covaithe's "Death's Reach"

    In L4W:
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    In LEB:
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    Come join us in the Shifting Seas and Transitive Isles of Living 4th Edition, amazing adventures and great fun guaranteed!
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    Please excuse my poor English. It is not my first language.

 

  • #52
    LOL Well sure if you use a bunch of other powers/abilities together, you can do that. Assuming you have a tactlord, flank, ect...

    What you are saying is that this power is AWESOME if I add 20 other things to it to boost the static damage and hit. Well that's fine if you KNOW you're going to get those thing every single time. Not the kind of thing you can expect in a game like this. Also the 7w attack guy isn't doing 18 damage to himself every round...

    Small clarification Tinwe. 3x 1[W] + mods, NOT 4x 1[W] + mods. As I pointed out, the secondary attack on rain of blows isn't indented, so it's NOT dependent on the primary attack as per PHB2 rules for reading powers. As such you only get 1 secondary attack by RAW.

  • #53
    Quote Originally Posted by elecgraystone View Post
    What you are saying is that this power is AWESOME if I add 20 other things to it to boost the static damage and hit. Well that's fine if you KNOW you're going to get those thing every single time. Not the kind of thing you can expect in a game like this. Also the 7w attack guy isn't doing 18 damage to himself every round...
    Let's talk about something that you can get every time: the strength modifier. Let's examine damage with a +6 greatspear ([W] = 1d10). The average value of a 1d10 roll is 5.5. That means that a 7[W] attack does less damage than a 3x 1[W] attack if the fighter has at least 22 strength.

    You tell me how likely that is to happen at level 29, when you pick up your awesome reliable huge damage power. Now you can consider Iron Armbands, Bloodclaw, stacking damage modifiers ala ptifighter, and all the other little goodies that you might pick up.




    Small clarification Tinwe. (clip)
    I don't care to argue RoB semantics. The guy who designed the power is on-record as saying it's 4 attacks and "probably too strong". That's good enough for me. In any case, what I was actually talking about was the "opportunity cost" of missing with your big reliable power, allowing the guy who's using multiattacks to get even further ahead of you in damage with another attack.
    L4E

    Grim
    http://bit.ly/RxUFC
    Init: +3
    Perception: 12 Insight: 12
    HP: 30 Bloodied: 15 Surge Value: 7 Surges: 7
    AC: 16 NAD: 15/14/12 Speed:6
    AP:1 Second Wind:not used
    MBA: +1 Lifedrinking Bastard Sword +8 vs AC 1d10+5

    Hunter's Quarry
    Twin Strike
    Hit and Run

    Predatory Eye
    Off-hand Strike

    Jaws of the Wolf
    Hunter's Privilege
    Shane

    http://bit.ly/2MPJoN
    Init: 2 Speed: 5
    Perception: 14 Insight: 19
    AC: 16 NAD: 12/13/17
    HP: 24 Bloodied: 12
    Surge Value:6 Surges: 8
    Second Wind: Not used
    MBA: Dagger +3 vs AC; 1d4+0
    RBA: Dagger +5 vs AC; 1d4+2

    Astral Seal
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    Gaze of Defiance

    Bane
    Healer's Mercy
    Healing Word x2

    Beacon of Hope

    LEB
    Gruff

    http://bit.ly/4eIoAu

    Init: +2
    Perception: 14 Insight: 19
    HP: 49/49 Bloodied: 24 Surge Value: 12 Surges: 11
    AC: 27 NAD: 17/17/17 Speed:5
    AP:1 Second Wind:not used
    MBA: +1 Subtle Kopesh +6 vs AC 1d8+2 (+3 with CA)

    Booming Blade
    Lightning Lure
    Aegis of Ensnarement

    Falcon's Mark
    Dual Lightning Strike



  • #54
    Sigh... It only does more damage IF they all hit. And you roll average. And you aren't using a 2d6 weapon. If you don't mind hurting yourself doing it. If you are a pitfighter with a high wisdom. Crapload of if's...

    As far as the RoB semantics and the guy who designed the power, the fact is they have NOT put out an errata for it. Something they have NOT been afraid to do MANY times. As such, his statement holds no weight with me. If he felt it was a mistake, then it should be in the official errata. Until then the RoB semantics trumps internet guys unofficial word.

    And I know your point, I just don't agree with it. On hard to hit foes, a reliable big damage attack does more damage than a flurry of less damaging smaller attacks in my experience. Your spreadsheet may tell you different but that's what I've seen.
    Last edited by elecgraystone; Thursday, 28th May, 2009 at 06:00 PM.

  • #55
    Quote Originally Posted by elecgraystone View Post
    Sigh... It only does more damage IF they all hit. And you roll average. And you aren't using a 2d6 weapon. If you don't mind hurting yourself doing it. If you are a pitfighter with a high wisdom. Crapload of if's...
    The example I gave you has only 1 "if". IF the fighter's strength is 22 or higher, he will do more damage. Everything else that you're tryingto throw out there as a conditional just makes the imbalance greater.

    For instance, "if" you're a pitfighter with 28 str / 24 wis and "if" you have a bloodclaw weapon, and "if" only 50% of attacks hit, and "if" you have a 2d6 weapon, and "if" you decided to snag Weapon Focus, and heck, "if" you have epic Iron Armbands, and "if" we assume RoB is 3 attacks, not 4, then RoB will, on average, outdamage that 7[W] attack by exactly double.

    And I know your point, I just don't agree with it. On hard to hit foes, a reliable big damage attack does more damage than a flurry of less damaging smaller attacks in my experience. Your spreadsheet may tell you different but that's what I've seen.
    I don't use a spreadsheet. I use pretty accessible math that I learned in junior high. Frankly, if your mantra is "anecdote is a valid form of evidence", I don't see much point in continuing to try to convince you with actual math.
    L4E

    Grim
    http://bit.ly/RxUFC
    Init: +3
    Perception: 12 Insight: 12
    HP: 30 Bloodied: 15 Surge Value: 7 Surges: 7
    AC: 16 NAD: 15/14/12 Speed:6
    AP:1 Second Wind:not used
    MBA: +1 Lifedrinking Bastard Sword +8 vs AC 1d10+5

    Hunter's Quarry
    Twin Strike
    Hit and Run

    Predatory Eye
    Off-hand Strike

    Jaws of the Wolf
    Hunter's Privilege
    Shane

    http://bit.ly/2MPJoN
    Init: 2 Speed: 5
    Perception: 14 Insight: 19
    AC: 16 NAD: 12/13/17
    HP: 24 Bloodied: 12
    Surge Value:6 Surges: 8
    Second Wind: Not used
    MBA: Dagger +3 vs AC; 1d4+0
    RBA: Dagger +5 vs AC; 1d4+2

    Astral Seal
    Sacred Flame
    Gaze of Defiance

    Bane
    Healer's Mercy
    Healing Word x2

    Beacon of Hope

    LEB
    Gruff

    http://bit.ly/4eIoAu

    Init: +2
    Perception: 14 Insight: 19
    HP: 49/49 Bloodied: 24 Surge Value: 12 Surges: 11
    AC: 27 NAD: 17/17/17 Speed:5
    AP:1 Second Wind:not used
    MBA: +1 Subtle Kopesh +6 vs AC 1d8+2 (+3 with CA)

    Booming Blade
    Lightning Lure
    Aegis of Ensnarement

    Falcon's Mark
    Dual Lightning Strike



  • #56
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    Ignore Atanatotatos
    Btw I've always sucked at math and my eyes start to bleed as soon as I lay them upon a spreadsheet so... yeah, what I say comes from gaming experience, as well. Just though I'd say that
    But, it's pointless to continue like this. I suggest we simply state that RoB gives 3 attacks max in L4W, and that's all. It's still more powerful than the other fighter powers at (not only) that level but heh...
    Current PBP
    DM in:
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    Playing:
    Koryo of the Tiger's Rest in Voda Vosa's "Path of Enlightment"
    Belleros Arkeion in Sparky's "Thorantar"
    Thormir Brassbeard in EvolutionKB's "Lost-Eberron-4eStyle"
    Anostor Duran in covaithe's "Death's Reach"

    In L4W:
    Alexander Duran, Proud member of the MMC
    in:
    Phoenix8008's "The Captain's Caper"
    "Redblade's Riches"
    Hadarai Polemarkos
    in:
    KenHood's "TURTLEDOME!:Battle Bone"

    In LEB:
    Thusk Tharashk Duran

    Come join us in the Shifting Seas and Transitive Isles of Living 4th Edition, amazing adventures and great fun guaranteed!
    Then to play community 4e in Eberron join us in LEB too! Give life to your characters and contribute to the living settings!



    Please excuse my poor English. It is not my first language.

  • #57
    Quote Originally Posted by elecgraystone View Post
    Small clarification Tinwe. 3x 1[W] + mods, NOT 4x 1[W] + mods. As I pointed out, the secondary attack on rain of blows isn't indented, so it's NOT dependent on the primary attack as per PHB2 rules for reading powers. As such you only get 1 secondary attack by RAW.
    Except the secondary attack IS indented.

    It was always indented in the PHB. For a while it was not indented in the online Compendium, but that's been fixed. (In fact, when the designer clarified that it was 4x, he said, "Some of the confusion probably comes from the fact that it's indented incorrectly in the Compendium..." But it's always been indented in the PHB.)

  • #58
    nothing to see here...

  • #59
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles View Post
    Except the secondary attack IS indented.
    I'll have to check that the next time I get my hands on a physical PHB [who knows when that'll be. sigh...]. What I have here I copied from the Compendium before I lost access to it.

    What I'm trying to say Atanatotatos and Tinwe is that you are looking it in a perfect storm kind of way. If I have a tactlord Siamese twin, if I flank ect. When everything is perfect, that power comes out on top. I'm looking at it from a normal gametop way. We might not have a tactlord. We might not be able to get a flank. The fighter might not be a pitfighter and he might not want to take damage every time he hits. And I'm damn sure the fighter doesn't assume he's hitting with all his attacks.

    And my spreadsheet comments are about the type of argument NOT you actually using a spreadsheet. Far too often I've seen people 'do the math' and come up with a totally different conclusion that I do after I actually see it in action. If you are commenting on your personal experience then that's fine but if you are telling me what the 'math' says, I'm telling you it's lied to me many times.

  • #60
    Everyone lies, why shouldn't numbers :P

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