Using D&D for fantasy horror

Rechan · Jun 11, 2009

For the sake of sharing good brain candy, here's a great thread for horror ideas:
Creepy... - EN World D&D / RPG News

Thanael · Jun 11, 2009

...Ravenloft ?

Desdichado · Jun 11, 2009

Kamikaze Midget said:
It might help if we knew exactly what you meant by "fantasy horror."

It could vary. I kinda envision something similar to a Call of Cthulhu campaign, or The X-files show, but set in a fantasy setting.

Kamikaze Midget said:
Do you expect PC's to generally survive from adventure to adventure, or are you willing to put the fear of actual permanent character death before them as a common (and likely) thing?

Difficult to tell. A horror campaign isn't about just PCs dying (that's more likely to turn into bizarre comedy a la Paranoia if it gets out of hand) but the very real threat of PC death has to linger over the campaign at all times. I guess that depends on how smart and/or lucky the players decide to be.

Ariosto said:
Are you acquainted with the Call of Cthulhu d20? I don't have any first-hand experience with it, but from what I've heard it's quite an effective "port". My guess is that the material would be mechanically pretty compatible with D&D 3.5.

Yes, I have it. It's probably my favorite RPG book bar none in my entire collection.

But... I'm not talking about porting. I'm talking about running D&D.

Ariosto said:
Mere disgust at gore is sometimes mistaken for the desired affect in clumsy attempts to evoke horror.

That reminds me; a few years ago we had a resident surgeon in our group. Whenever we tried to describe gore for shocking (or schlocking) effect, it kinda rebounded on us, because he could give us the real dope.

Phaezen said:
D&D can most certainly be used as a horror game. See if you can find copies of Heroes of Horror and D20 Call of Cthulhu for some very good pointers as to how to run a horror style game.

Got both books. I don't really need generic advice on how to run horror; not only do I already have some of the best ever in print, but I've done it a few times and (as modestly as possible) like to think that I'm pretty good at evoking the mood and all that. I'm more looking for some specific ideas on what to do.

Thanael said:
...Ravenloft ?

No. Fine setting and all, but not what I'm looking for.

Jack7 · Jun 11, 2009

"But Mr. Hobo, you idiot," you may be saying, "why in the world would you use D&D 3.5, which is a system totally inappropriate for horror?"

I don't think it is an inappropriate observation at all. D&D of all stripes (some versions more than others) is a very horror-centric game, especially if you consider the idea that monsters are real and creeping around ruins and deserted outposts (if you've ever done that kind thing for real) is, or can be, very spooky, and even lethal (not because of monsters, but because men, animals, or accident and misadventure can ambush and kill you). The very basis of the way people go about "adventuring" (as opposed to adventuring through the jungles of South America, which is dangerous enough in itself) lends itself to suspense, danger, and horror. And if done right, then outright terror (within the mental and mood confines of the game of course, there is no real horror or monster to fear). But because the game has become over time more and more about "the fight" the monster and several other of the naturally inherent horror elements have been relegated to the domain of "simple challenges." More like a sports challenge than a fight for survival and a wrestling with things that could destroy not only the individual but mankind, or even civilization itself.

To me though horror is not so much the fear of death (which you can get used to and overcome with exposure and training, or even by simple religious faith) as it is the fear of death in a certain and peculiar manner. In a manner that implies more than "just death."

So I agree with this. Very much so.

To my mind, horror is distinguished by a sense of dreadful wrongness that disturbs on a level deeper than rational fear.

To me though, if you want to go about implying real horror, then that includes monsters who are more than just monsters and sparring partners and killing machines (they must be real and horrible), dread fates (traps for instance should do more than kill, they should kill slowly, torturously, and horribly), weird and bizarre events, objects, devices, and creatures, it should also be isolation, real survival challenges (that is to say that the environment ought to be as dangerous as the monsters - who are far more than mere opponents, they are real monsters - likewise the environment should be "monstrous," not an ally or something you can use for benefit, but something you must fear or at least respect), the unavoidable, Doom (in the larger sense, that which tracks and hunts you relentlessly and which sooner or later you must turn to meet, you may be able to overcome it, at least partially, but you cannot escape it), and decay (that is to say you are slowly broken down and weakened with no chance for successful full recovery before encountering the next lethal challenge.)

I'd also include disease (people don't often realize nowadays how horrific disease can be, because we are largely shielded from it, but trust me, with no chance of treatment or relief disease can be horrific and relentlessly crippling, and if you're already in danger, so much the worse and horrible), being unable to protect each other, separation (a form of isolation), the weather, and areas where normal advantages (like spells and magic) are mitigated or eliminated. Think of a man who over time slowly has one advantage after another stripped from him as he sees one horrific sight after another, becomes more and more isolated, and cannot even protect himself and his own comrades. Horror doesn't have to start out full blown, and it usually doesn't. It creeps upon a man as he realizes to his dismay that every advantage he has previously relied upon is failing him and he becomes more and more unsure of his own survival and the survival of his own comrades.

I don't know if that helped ya any or not Hobo but that's my take on how to employ horror.

The_Warlock · Jun 11, 2009

Ok, here's what I'd do...

The set level with expenditures to buy specific improvements sounds good, but I would make it lower at first and grow to the maximum cost. Say 1/4 the costs you initially posted, then each time an improvement is bought, the cost for all improvements escalates.

Use a Taint or Corruption system. Personally, I use the one from True20, but anything that tracks maddening choices and evil choices that tacks on to the standard D&D system easily is worth it.

Characters with higher Corruption scores (which should impair them in one or more ways - usually at the attribute level) however get "discounts" on buying improvements, or open up some more edge of sanity type improvements. These aren't listed anywhere until someone gets enough corruption, you take them aside and say, "You can purchase these specials now at the listed costs. Don't tell anyone else about these options."

Add another level of fear condition, "Freaked Out" or "Jumpy" that penalizes Will saves and to hit by 1, but gives a bonus to Initiative or Spot as the character becomes totally on edge straining for the horrors around the corner. Then follow the normal fear progression.

The big issue, with D&D, is figuring out when a monster goes from being "Monstrous" to "Horrifying". Are all monsters beyond the norm for these adventurers, or can they handle bestial humanoids and basiliks, while totally losing it when an ooze from space rounds the corner?

I'd look at the various creature Types, and ID them as Mundane, Monstrous, Unsettling, Horrifying.

Mundane creatures instill no fear or potential terror on their own, and in fact, can suffer just as badly as the PCs when something terrible comes around the corner.

Monstrous creatures, while nasty and horrible, aren't instantly terrifying - but cause some kind of fear save whenever they use a special attack - howls, rends, rakes - and the gore and brutality sinks home in the PCs.

Unsettling creatures put everybody on edge. Give them a fear aura, save or be "Freaked Out". Like Monstrous, using a special attack should force a fear save vs the target or onlookers.

Horrifying monsters are all cthulian, all the time, and have a fear aura. Shapechangers can probably shut it off when they are in an alternate form, but otherwise, it's always on because the creature is just WRONG. Similar to all nasties, using a special attack triggers a fear save.

I would also focus on having lots of descriptions that are disturbing, unusual, and inexplicable - especially when the PCs are using different senses - detect magic, darkvision, etc. Players who roleplay a good reaction to that get some kind of benefit - escape death, but get a permanent minor insanity (you just weren't tasty enough to that creature); something that gets them out of the immediate jam, but still leaves them just a little more ruined by the horrors of the world.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

Umbran · Jun 11, 2009

Hobo said:
Well, here's my thought. First of all, level isn't something that you're entitled to in this game. You don't actually gain levels. Levels are for me to calibrate the "power level" of the game, and the game is meant to remain at that level the entire time. That doesn't mean some character advancement isn't possible; I think you can spend 1,000 XP to gain a rank in a skill (up to your maximum ranks for that level. I'm thinking 3rd is probably where I want to set it) and you can spend 5,000 XP for a new feat. BAB increases with skills like Weapon Focus, HP increases if you take Toughness, etc. You don't automatically get increases here.

While that will work, it is probably more complicated than it needs to be. You can write an entire supplement about turning 3e into a point-buy system, and calibrating such can be a hassle.

You can get much the same effect by simply massively cutting XP awards, and leaving everything else in place.

But systemwise, I can't think of any reason why low(ish) level D&D, stuck permanently at that level like an even lower powered E6 variant, couldn't be used to evoke the same feel as a game designed specifically for horror.

That depends on the kind of horror you want. There are a few mechanics (sanity loss, death-spirals, use of supernatural power having a major "price") that are not native to 3e that some kinds of horror really call for. If you don't want them specifically, 3e is fine.

Desdichado · Jun 11, 2009

The_Warlock said:
Use a Taint or Corruption system. Personally, I use the one from True20, but anything that tracks maddening choices and evil choices that tacks on to the standard D&D system easily is worth it.

I like Taint/Corruption systems too. Good call; I had forgotten to mention that, but I almost certainly would have remembered in time and wanted to add something.

I've got a few options in my collection I can use; I'll have to look them over and decide which one I like best.

The_Walock said:
Add another level of fear condition, "Freaked Out" or "Jumpy" that penalizes Will saves and to hit by 1, but gives a bonus to Initiative or Spot as the character becomes totally on edge straining for the horrors around the corner. Then follow the normal fear progression.

I'll probably borrow the expanded fear rules from Darkness & Dread, but I'll need to look them over because it's been a while since I read them. If not, I've got lots of options for Sanity/Madness/Fear/etc. to choose from, most of them designed to interact natively with d20.

Umbran said:
While that will work, it is probably more complicated than it needs to be. You can write an entire supplement about turning 3e into a point-buy system, and calibrating such can be a hassle.

You can get much the same effect by simply massively cutting XP awards, and leaving everything else in place.

Huh? It's literally the least complicated process I can imagine. I can describe it to the players with a single sentence fragment, and as GM I never have to worry about calibrating, or recalibrating as the game changes due to levels going up.

Umbran said:
That depends on the kind of horror you want. There are a few mechanics (sanity loss, death-spirals, use of supernatural power having a major "price") that are not native to 3e that some kinds of horror really call for. If you don't want them specifically, 3e is fine.

Actually, many of those are native to 3e. They're just not core to 3e. I don't think much of swapping in and out modular house rule systems, though. I've been doing since the beginning of 3e, and this option is actually the most conservative that I thought of.

Umbran · Jun 11, 2009

Hobo said:
Huh? It's literally the least complicated process I can imagine. I can describe it to the players with a single sentence fragment

And you can't describe cutting XP that simply? Four words - "I'm cutting XP awards". If you go point-buy, you need a price list to fully describe what you're doing. Sure, it's a sentence fragment, but it is more data.

and as GM I never have to worry about calibrating, or recalibrating as the game changes due to levels going up.

With any form of advancement, if the game goes on for a while, you need to occasionally recalibrate - not having levels does not save you from that.

With levels, you know when you need to recalibrate - when PCs gain levels. Point buy signals do not signal when the PCs have gained enhancements that make a notable difference in what they can do. End result - the need to recalibrate can sneak up on the GM of a point-buy system, where it announces itself in a leveled one. This is one of the (some would say few) strengths of having levels.

Actually, many of those are native to 3e. They're just not core to 3e.

Death spirals, sanity, and hefty cost to use of magic are about as native to D&D as curry is to London. "Good versions easily found" does not equate to "native".

Desdichado · Jun 11, 2009

Umbran said:
And you can't describe cutting XP that simply? Four words - "I'm cutting XP awards". If you go point-buy, you need a price list to fully describe what you're doing. Sure, it's a sentence fragment, but it is more data.

Well, it seems we're splitting hairs here. One incredibly incomplex adjustment vs. another. It doesn't really matter. The point is, I have other reasons for doing so (I like the much, much flatter growth curve. I mean really flat.) for it's own sake. And the solution isn't complex at all.

Umrban said:
With any form of advancement, if the game goes on for a while, you need to occasionally recalibrate - not having levels does not save you from that.

With levels, you know when you need to recalibrate - when PCs gain levels. Point buy signals do not signal when the PCs have gained enhancements that make a notable difference in what they can do. End result - the need to recalibrate can sneak up on the GM of a point-buy system, where it announces itself in a leveled one. This is one of the (some would say few) strengths of having levels.

Pretty much it does save me from that, actually, yeah. You can't bring to bear too many feats in any given situation anyway, so the growth tapers off to a flatline, for all intents and purposes, at probably a more or less 5th level effectiveness or so.

Umbran said:
Death spirals, sanity, and hefty cost to use of magic are about as native to D&D as curry is to London. "Good versions easily found" does not equate to "native".

How are they not native? If they're designed specifically to mesh with the d20 system and use the same mechanical underpinnings, they're native. They're just not core, because those rules aren't in the core books. Native doesn't have anything to do with, "is a different play paradigm" and has everything to do with mechanical commonality, the way I see it.

Desdichado · Jun 11, 2009

Setting: I've been re-reading some of my Iron Kingdoms stuff, and while horror isn't the only thing IK does, there's a strong undercurrent of horror there and I think it's one of three or four pillars that describe the setting thematically. So, I'm thinking of outright stealing a few ideas from there. To whit:

Cryx: the nightmare empire of taint, undead, pirates, and dragon-gods. Use as is.
The Orgoth: this is just a background element, but the idea that for several centuries, everyone was enslaved to a culture of brutal, barbaric demon-worshipping cultists, and that they've only been chased away for about 500 years, is one I can get a lot of mileage out of.
Thamarite cultists: I might rename them, or apply them to different gods, but I love the idea of these guys, especially as described in the Five Fingers book.
The Blackclads: nature is really scary. Or, at least if can be. These guys are druids done right. And dark. And scary.

Some other non-IK stuff I'm thinking of; the PC's live in a large city-state, or small kingdom with a single large urban center, surrounded by smaller villages, farms and beyond that, wilderness. The PCs are agents of the king; a kind of fantasy Fox and Mulder, if you will. Or maybe official witch-hunters. Something along those lines, anyway. That gives me an excuse to have them work together in an endeavor that otherwise they'd probably rather not deal with.