Proposal: Arcane Power

JoeNotCharles said:

Hmm. On the one hand, I like the flavour of these changes. On the other, they're less powerful than the originals. Another option is to attack the specific problem: add a clause saying the slide "does not trigger this attack again".

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I'm always in favor of changing to pushes instead of slides as you can't loop back with those. It's hard to imagine stepping into a grease spell to slide forward 1 then back one. As for the Gateway, you end up being able to put the target in any of the same spaces. About the only thing you can't do is put them back in the gateway.

JoeNotCharles said:

we make a rule that forced movement caused by an attack cannot trigger the same type of attack from the same source again.

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I don't know how I feel about this. Some power you take just because you can trigger it more than once with a different power. Without that, it's a serious nerf.

JoeNotCharles said:

Heh, good point. I guess that keyword is just completely immaterial for those powers.

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Yep, I have to scratch my head at some of the ones it gets added to.

JoeNotCharles said:

Ah, that makes sense - you can't get through the wall here so you have to try at a different spot, or at least move away and look at it from a different angle to spot the illusion.

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That's the way it makes sense to me. Granted, it's technically all one wall but moving to a new square and treating it an a new 'wall' works.

JoeNotCharles said:

Note, however, that's not what the power says - it explicitly says the enemy "cannot move through the wall on its current turn", and as that's the only thing in the power that says you cannot move through the wall, as written when your turn ends you're free to move through it.

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Actually it doesn't say what happens on the next turn. We only have what happen on a hit or a miss but not on a pass. So it's not clear what would happen. It doesn't say it can move through on it's next turn but can try. We don't know HOW it can try though.

JoeNotCharles said:

However, now that you've explained it I think your version above is what the designers intended. But to actually work that way, the power needs to be amended by changing "on its current turn, but it can try again on later turns" to "until it is attacked again and missed".

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I'm all for clarifying it. As is, it takes a bit of guesswork and figuring out what makes sense.

I am not in favor of changing a slide to a push, because that is a serious nerf. I've seen people, in RL, slip forward, and backward, on the same surface. sometimes both at once, looks very painful.

There is also no reason to nerf grease or planar gateway.

From the way I read grease. It is a daily power that does no damage, but is an auto-prone for any creature that enters the zone. What is so over powered about that? Who cares if it infinitely loops, it's not much better than getting infinite oregano. My wizards are not likely to be taking this power.

Planar gateway is an encounter attack power, it can't infinitely loop because it can only be done once. If it were at-will, there may be more of an issue. Planar gateway is a power full of suck, for a controller. 3d6 slide 3 is on par with every other wizard paragon path lvl 11 attack power.

Neither are over-powered, or even impressive, for me.
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Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles
"we make a rule that forced movement caused by an attack cannot trigger the same type of attack from the same source again."

Absolutely opposed to this...

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As for Illusory Wall, When any enemy moves adjacent to the wall, you can make an attack (EDIT, OUT) against that target; if successful, the target cannot move through the wall on its current turn, but it can try again on later turns.

say that you are successful with your attack.

The enemy starts it's turn adjacent to the wall... The enemy takes his move action to "move through the wall", meaning that the target has taken a move action, AND is adjacent to the wall, perform another (EDIT, OUT) attack against the target... you succeed! rinse... repeat...

No need to change this power either. No the target doesn't have to try a different spot...

stonegod said:

Implements may have an effect on the summoning (there a few implements in the Eberron Player's Guide that do), so the use of the keyword is still important. Not sure why it was removed from the other.

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Those effects are on the combat stats of the summoned creature{hit, dam, defenses ect} or require the creature to be hit. None of those apply to the hound, so an implement has no effect on the hound.

CaBaNa said:

It is a daily power that does no damage, but is an auto-prone for any creature that enters the zone.

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Then it should be written as an auto-prone attack to simplify it. Do you really want people rolling multiple attacks to get a prone in the game? 'Here is my links. I had to roll 7 times to get him prone!'

CaBaNa said:

Planar gateway is an encounter attack power, it can't infinitely loop because it can only be done once. If it were at-will, there may be more of an issue. Planar gateway is a power full of suck, for a controller. 3d6 slide 3 is on par with every other wizard paragon path lvl 11 attack power.

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Don't forget that it's a burst and allies can move through ally spaces. So creatures start up in the canter. So one free action 3d6 + int attacks. Now we move the three creatures through the area in a circle, keeping them adjacent to the center square. Every square of movement triggers a free action attack so that's TEN 3d6+int attacks [9 from movement, 1 from starting in the area]! So how is this NOT overpowered? Show me another wizard paragon path lvl 11 attack power that could trigger 28 3d6+int attacks on 9 targets [316 individual attacks]? [every square has an enemy and is moved 3 squares in the area, triggering 3 attacks each, 4 for the center]

It should not be written as an auto-hit, because I may choose to slide the target 2 and leave it at that...

The free action attack you keep doing at-will, is an encounter power. It only happens once in an encounter as a free action. Free action is not equal to At-will...

elecgraystone said:

Those effects are on the combat stats of the summoned creature{hit, dam, defenses ect} or require the creature to be hit. None of those apply to the hound, so an implement has no effect on the hound.

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I was thinking about something like the Tome of Forty Steps which requires you to use a summoning power. Now that I look at it, it doesn't specify you have to have used the implement on that power, however. Interesting.

I was actually unclear if Implement enhancements apply to Summoned attacks. The power was done w/ the implement, but the creature is making the final attacks, not you with the implement.

CaBaNa said:

It should not be written as an auto-hit, because I may choose to slide the target 2 and leave it at that...

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So you want long lines of hit attempts? I know I wouldn't. I've been known to miss many times in a row...

CaBaNa said:

The free action attack you keep doing at-will, is an encounter power. It only happens once in an encounter as a free action. Free action is not equal to At-will...

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Please give me a page number for this. As far as I know, any number of free actions can happen in a round.

PHB said:

Free actions take almost no time or effort. You can take as many free actions as you want during your or another combatant’s turn.

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Now Planar Gateway is a free action triggered by starting in the gateway or moving adjecent to it. Where does it say it can be triggered only once?​

stonegod said:

I was thinking about something like the Tome of Forty Steps which requires you to use a summoning power. Now that I look at it, it doesn't specify you have to have used the implement on that power, however. Interesting.

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yeah, you are right. The one's I look at in the Eberron book say 'the next creature you summon'. So you wouldn't even have to use the implement WHEN you summon. I'll agree. Interesting.

stonegod said:

I was actually unclear if Implement enhancements apply to Summoned attacks. The power was done w/ the implement, but the creature is making the final attacks, not you with the implement.

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It doesn't say one way or the other. It just says you make an attack through the creature. I'd take that to mean you use your attack which would include your implement if it's listed as one.

elecgraystone said:

So you want long lines of hit attempts? I know I wouldn't. I've been known to miss many times in a row...

Please give me a page number for this. As far as I know, any number of free actions can happen in a round.

Now Planar Gateway is a free action triggered by starting in the gateway or moving adjecent to it. Where does it say it can be triggered only once?​

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If you don't want long lines of hit attempts, then don't, slide the target 2 and stop mucking about...
There is nothing concerning about Grease...

The page number for free action does not equal at-will is not needed. At-will, encounter, and daily are frequency of use keywords for powers. Free-action, standard action, move action, and minor action, are the types of actions needed to trigger the use of said power

So an encounter power, that takes a free action to activate... is not an at-will power.

it is still an encounter power. NOT at will.

I can't clarify this any further...

Free actions can be taken any number of times in a round, however the Planar Gateway Attack is an encounter power, and no matter how many times you use a free action to activate it, it will only work once per encounter.

Planar Gateway-Standard Action-Encounter
Panar Gateway Attack-Free Action-Encounter

No CaBaNa, the standard action is to create the gateway. The triggered action, which is 100% seperate from the creation action, is a free action. Are you trying to say that one one creature per round can trigger a grease spell or a gateway? That's not what the book says.

Let me put it another way. Why can you only make one OA a round? Because it's an opportunity action and you can only make one per round. Change it to free, and you could make as many in a round as there were triggering events. This works the same way. Since it's not an opportunity action, you can make that attack on EVERY creature that triggers it.

elecgraystone, you're wrong.

Planar Gateway is separate from Planar Gateway Attack, The Triggered action is 100% separate from the creation action. (which is a standard action) The triggered action is a free action. The triggered action is also an ENCOUNTER POWER! It can only be used once. Yes, you can use a free action all day long, but an encounter power can still only be used once per encounter. just because I can take a standard action next round doesn't mean I can use the same encounter power twice in one encounter.

Grease free action is At-will so it can be done infinitely, but who cares. The end result is either slide 2 or prone. It won't kill anyone, or sway a battle more than any other level 1 wizard at will. I place it inferior to most of the other level 1 wizard dailies.


EDIT: I just realized you aren't being stupid elecgraystone. AP in print doesn't have the designations. If you read the update on AP I think it may mention this. However in the compendium it very specifically lays out that both the original and triggered actions are encounter powers. I think it solves your problem well.

Sorry for being such a dick about it, I didn't realize we were reading separate and conflicting source references...