Proposal: Arcane Power

TwoHeadsBarking · Jul 20, 2009

I don't see where in the Grease spell it specifies that it's Free Action is an at-will. The format is exactly the same as Planar Gateway, so why does the Daily give an at-will attack when the Encounter only gives an Encounter attack?

elecgraystone · Jul 20, 2009

Please point out where is says that the grease attack is at will and the gateway's isn't? Please point out how one free action attack is different in writing? I'm looking at both and they BOTH have the same wording. if grease can be triggered multiple times in a round, so can gateway.

nerdytenor · Jul 20, 2009

Re: Planar Gateway

The only thing I'm sure if is that this power is not totally clear.

If they wanted it to be used only once after the gateway was set up, why didn't they format the power the same way they do warden 'form' powers in PHB2? Those have a line like "Special: Once during this encounter, you can use the Form of the XYZ Attack power while you are in this form." Would have been much clearer.

Hmpf. At any rate, it's probably not worth worrying about much - I estimate a 95.133% chance that this never comes up in actual L4e play.

- nt

elecgraystone · Jul 20, 2009

CaBaNa said:
EDIT: I just realized you aren't being stupid elecgraystone. AP in print doesn't have the designations. If you read the update on AP I think it may mention this. However in the compendium it very specifically lays out that both the original and triggered actions are encounter powers. I think it solves your problem well.

Sorry for being such a dick about it, I didn't realize we were reading separate and conflicting source references...

LOL No problem. It explains why things weren't adding up. Sigh... It WOULD be nice to be able to read the compendium.

I didn't notice this in the errata when I looked over it. I'll download it and check out what it says. If it says what you've posted, then you are right and there isn't a problem with the power.

CaBaNa · Jul 20, 2009

It specifies on the compendium and probably in the updates for AP.

Grease's power is an at will http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/power.aspx?id=2351

Planar Gateway's is an encounter see here

EDIT: Just realized it could even be in those July updates...
Yeah my DDI has been well worth it... Then again, I haven't run into the same CustServ issues others have.

Velmont · Jul 20, 2009

My 2 cents:

Planar Gateway: I agree with CaBaNa. Once you use that encounter power, you gain a new encounter power: Planar Gateway Attack (and thus, you can use it only once per encounter). If you would be able to use the Planar Gateway Attack more than once, it would be an at-will power, just like Arcane Deflection.

Grease: Strange power. The power is an area burst within 10 feet, but the attack power is a Close Burst 1. Anyway, as someone have told it, I find that power a lot more interesting if you miss than if you hit (to keep enemy to come in close combat). Could be a good power for a multi-class with only 13 Int, so you avoid to hit as much as possible.

But as it is a daily, do no damage, and the at-will is a close burst 1, I don't see it broken.

EDIT: Ok, I looked in the compendium too, not in AP book. But compendium is clear on the encounter/at-will of Planar Gateway and Grease. And the compendium is the most up to date source I have avalaible.

Kalidrev · Jul 20, 2009

Here's my opinion on what to do with these spells (if anyone cares lol):

Grease: Make it an opportunity attack. This eliminates the problem of it being able to activate against an opponent more than once per round since it only activates when they ENTER the area, not while they are within it. If they go back in on their next turn... that's their idiocy =P Also, make it so that on a miss it slides IN A STRAIGHT LINE in the direction they were originally headed. This prevents the power from being able to slide creatures in and out of the effect (which doesn't make sense anyways. It's grease on the floor, not a magical hand grabbing and moving you wherever you want).

Planar Gateway: Make this an immediate reaction with a trigger of the enemy entering a square adjacent to the zone or starting their turn adjacent to the zone. This prevents it from being the overpowered beast that elecgraystone claims it to be (even though I don't personally read it as being such).

elecgraystone · Jul 20, 2009

CaBaNa said:
It specifies on the compendium and probably in the updates for AP.

Well, I downloaded the arcane power update and the july updates and neither one has that errata. I hadn't thought I'd missed it. That's a bit of an issue. If they are going to have errata ONLY in the DDI then how is anyone to know there is a difference until we get into an argument about the wording and we're both right? :erm:

nerdytenor · Jul 20, 2009

Grr... that is annoying. Well, it's been a fun discussion, anyway.

Thanks, WotC. :rant:

covaithe · Jul 21, 2009

Ok, what with the downtime and general state of being constantly busy, I lost track of this thread for a while... and it got a little ugly. Let's keep this civil and friendly, folks.

That said, can't we just agree that if a power/effect/whatever causes an infinite loop or an auto-hit situation, that it's wrong and you should use common sense? In the case of grease, I think it's pretty obvious that sliding out and back in again shouldn't trigger a second attack -- but if you slide him out, and your fighter uses Tide of Iron to push him back in, that does trigger a second attack. I don't remember how Planar Gateway works, but surely there's some other common-sense interpretation we can come up with.

I do think that there's a possibility for a reasonable case where a single power's zone effect could reasonably affect a single target more than once in a turn, even without cheesy slide effects. Here's a situation I've seen come up in combat: Wizard casts Wall of Fire in a zig-zag, then uses Thunderlance to push an enemy in such a way that it enters and leaves the wall several times:

Code:

 | ABCDEFGHIJKL  
===============
1|       F   F      
2|  WBF F F F           
3|     F   F

F is the wall of fire, B is the bad guy, and W is the wizard. If W manages to push the bad guy 5 squares east, he'll enter the wall of fire three times.

Does he take damage each time? I say yes. To me, this is absolutely classic wizard play.