OGL:Someone releases as OGC a most revolutionary & awesome game design.You, Wotc...

Halivar · Jul 1, 2009

xechnao said:
Just look at the results.

That's not enough; correlation does not indicate causation. The streamlining was going to happen whether it was WotC, or TSR, or whoever else might buy out D&D simply because it was the inevitable reaction to the rules-glut 2nd Edition had become. It would be akin to saying "Blizzard must have helped WotC write 4th Edition because... well, just look at the results."

thecasualoblivion · Jul 1, 2009

xechnao said:
Just look at the results. A big effort to get all things streamlined and organized under a system mechanic that runs the whole game. If I also remember correctly I have read somewhere -it could be anywhere between some game design textbook or some post in some forum- the creator of M:tG, Richard Garfield, was giving advice to the D&D team -memory could be failing me though.

You're mistaken if you think M:tG was the inspiration for this. The inspiration for this was most of the non-D&D RPGs rolling around in the 90's that used a unified resolution mechanic.

xechnao · Jul 1, 2009

Halivar said:
That's not enough; correlation does not indicate causation.

Well it depends what you are looking for. It depends from one's standards and measures. For me the influence is more or less apparent. Were it because of the maturation of certain circumstances in the course of time or something else it doesn't matter. If it was not M:tG the phenomena of that era, but a different game, with a different philosophy, most probably 3e's design would share from that philosophy or mindset. Wotc may have been announcing that D&D's design has nothing to do with M:tG, just to confront some of the inevitable nerd rage of D&D fans. It doesn't mean it is true though. Anyway, as I said, if I remember correctly I read that Richard Garfield has in effect advised on the design of 3e while he was working at Wotc that era.

thecasualoblivion · Jul 1, 2009

xechnao said:
Well it depends what you are looking for. It depends from one's standards and measures. For me the influence is more or less apparent. Were it because of the maturation of certain circumstances in the course of time or something else it doesn't matter. If it was not M:tG the phenomena of that era, but a different game, with a different philosophy, most probably 3e's design would share from that philosophy or mindset. Wotc may have been announcing that D&D's design has nothing to do with M:tG, just to confront some of the inevitable nerd rage of D&D fans. It doesn't mean it is true though. Anyway, as I said, if I remember correctly I read that Richard Garfield has in effect advised on the design of 3e while he was working at Wotc that era.

3E=M:tG is more lame than the 4E=WoW accusation. 3E took more from World of Darkness, Rolemaster and GURPS than it did from M:tG.

Can you be specific and name things about 3E that were inspired by M:tG or are you just puffing smoke?

ggroy · Jul 1, 2009

I would be quite surprised if M:tG was a dominating influence on the design of 3E D&D.

What exactly led you to believe this?

Piratecat · Jul 1, 2009

thecasualoblivion said:
Can you be specific and name things about 3E that were inspired by M:tG or are you just puffing smoke?

Bye. Off to explore other threads you go.

Folks, we certainly appreciate it when you can discuss topics without trying to be pugnacious. Thanks to everyone who'd been working at that.

xechnao · Jul 1, 2009

ggroy said:
I would be quite surprised if M:tG was a dominating influence on the design of 3E D&D.

What exactly led you believe this?

Interesting question. As I said above the streamlining and organization. Its results make me think of M:tG. From monsters to characters to mechanics. Monsters, conditions etch are all streamlined in a certain way that answer to the same underlying design structure. From outsiders and magical beasts, to stunned and the way you damage incorporeal creatures. This reminds me of the M:tG organization of dividing the game in different card types and establishing relations that make things work. From the different colors to the lands powering the powers. Now on to characters: using this undelying structure character development is designed as deck-building more or less. It is all very focused on this. That is the design is very focused to provide that at 100% and only that. For me, the tight direction of the gameplay to these of results that are akin to M:tG is not a coincidence.

Keefe the Thief · Jul 1, 2009

So it´s the "stuff reminds me of stuff" explanation? All this means is that its easier for you to describe 3e by finding similarities in other games, i.e. MtG. This does NOT prove / lead to the conclusion that there was a significant amount of influence.

xechnao · Jul 1, 2009

Keefe the Thief said:
So it´s the "stuff reminds me of stuff" explanation? All this means is that its easier for you to describe 3e by finding similarities in other games, i.e. MtG. This does NOT prove / lead to the conclusion that there was a significant amount of influence.

Well, I do not know what you may have in mind when you say "significant". I also do not know what you want as "proof". I do not know how specific we can really get in this discussion but it is not fair to use this limitation to reply to whatever more general impressions may hold. The most specific thing I know, if this is what you are asking for, is what I remember of Richard Garfield -which I admit I may remember wrong, but I think it was like what I said. Nevertheless this is not that important either -I mean we do not need video tapes of what was happening at Wotc headquarters to figure out if 3e design was influenced from M:tG or not. We are gamers, we play these stuff, we understand them -well this may vary from person to person but it is not like terra incognita. Anyway, this M:tG thing is a bit of topic. If you have something to say, sure say so, but lets try to not engage in pedantics about it.

Nellisir · Jul 1, 2009

It may or may not be relevant to point out that, insofar as I know, WotC does not "recruit". That said, Meals certainly had a giant leg up with his body of d20 work.