OGL:Someone releases as OGC a most revolutionary & awesome game design.You, Wotc...

xechnao · Jun 30, 2009

ST said:
The premise is flawed.

"A most revolutionary and awesome game design"? Compared to what? There's no magic bullet -- almost every RPG is loved by some, hated by others.

Some examples come to mind that have had the sort of influence we are talking about.
D&D that sprung out of wargames. M:tG, WoW, Quake video game, Diablo video game, Dune video game, GW Warhammer.
In the video game world it is clear enough to see how new ideas or models dynamically shape the market and the hobby.

What you are saying is that we can only expect and accept that Wotc or D&D or what have you will be the only force driving things in the future so there is no case here to discuss -it is futile to be thinking of things like that. I do not share this mindset.

ST · Jun 30, 2009

xechnao said:
Some examples come to mind that have had the sort of influence we are talking about.
D&D that sprung out of wargames. M:tG, WoW, Quake video game, Diablo video game, Dune video game, GW Warhammer.
In the video game world it is clear enough to see how new ideas or models dynamically shape the market and the hobby.

What you are saying is that we can only expect and accept that Wotc or D&D or what have you will be the only force driving things in the future so there is no case here to discuss -it is futile to be thinking of things like that. I do not share this mindset.

I suppose you mean "what if someone comes up with a radical new concept of RPGs that is not D&D yet appeals to its market", well, there's plenty of those, and I think some are in fact fantastically designed. And lots of RPGs out there are popular with people who wouldn't play D&D, and vice versa, it's a pretty fragmented market in terms of preference.

None of those games, however well crafted, matters to Wizards, from a financial standpoint -- they target niche markets, and don't have the branding power D&D has.

I'm not saying "All others but Wizards are irrelevant". I'm saying "All others but Wizards are irrelevant as far as Wizards is concerned." What they'd specifically have cause to pay attention to was a game that competed directly with 4e's niche, which fulfills its goals and is appealing to the same audience, but more so. Assuming that hypothetical product exists, if it's OGC, no large corporation is going to mass-produce it, so it's not a serious competitor in terms of market share.

ST · Jun 30, 2009

To put it another way, Wizards is concerned about the health of their D&D line. It's a series of products released over time (and a subscription product as well), so it's a recurring revenue stream.

Hypothetical Amazing Game, which has the potential to appeal to 4e's market but better, is just one book. It comes out. Maybe it's even promoted, gets good marketing buzz, and sells well.

What now? Supplements don't just spring up out of nowhere. There's no recurring revenue stream. From Wizards' perspective, the product is not competing in their niche.

thecasualoblivion · Jun 30, 2009

xechnao said:
Some examples come to mind that have had the sort of influence we are talking about.
D&D that sprung out of wargames. M:tG, WoW, Quake video game, Diablo video game, Dune video game, GW Warhammer.
In the video game world it is clear enough to see how new ideas or models dynamically shape the market and the hobby.

What you are saying is that we can only expect and accept that Wotc or D&D or what have you will be the only force driving things in the future so there is no case here to discuss -it is futile to be thinking of things like that. I do not share this mindset.

With the possible exceptions of WoW and GW Warhammer(and possibly the Dune video game which I am not familiar with), all of the things you mentioned created something new. D&D, M:tG, Quake and Diablo created markets that previously didn't really exist. WoW and GW Warhammer took an existing market, and then did it so much better that they destroyed the competition.

RPGs are in their 4th decade now, and those have been four decades packed with innovation. There really isn't much room for this sort of revolutionary innovation at this point, and frankly WotC's DDI initiative is probably as close as we're going to get. As for going the WoW/GW Warhammer route it requires both creative and business resources which non-WotC entities in the RPG world just don't possess. A slick designer may appear here and there and create something neat, but they can't compete with WotC's deep list of top notch designers, can't compete with WotC's deep pockets, can't match WotC's production values, and don't have the resources to go into new territory like the DDI.

xechnao · Jun 30, 2009

ST said:
That's a moving target -- your examples are not RPGs, and outside of the scope you set. The original question is referring to RPGs, yes? Hm, I suppose you mean "what if someone comes up with a radical new concept of RPGs that is not D&D", well, there's plenty of those, and I think some are in fact fantastically designed.

They aren't relevant to Wizards, though, from a financial standpoint -- they target niche markets, and don't have the branding power D&D has.

I'm not saying "All others but Wizards are irrelevant". I'm saying "All others but Wizards are irrelevant as far as Wizards is concerned."

I am not saying it will happen. I am saying "what if..." just to check out our instincts. Wizards is concerned about the hobby market. The hobby is a creative lot and this makes things somehow interesting. Things are a bit more dynamic and perhaps unpredictable. There has been an indie movement, there have been various games that have had something to say. There has not been something really that groundbreaking to really shake up things -or perhaps it has, thinking of the OGL movement- but it is not that difficult to try to imagine and accept the premise of the thread. And the way of acceptance here is not something that you should really think too hard about. As Scribble noted there is not enough information for such a thing. The new game could be as awesome as you want it to be. The important thing is that it is something so much noticeable in the community as to make it interesting to consider about. This will vary from person to person of course. But it is something you can convince yourself to be thinkable and so to discuss about its plausible or rather possible consequences, according to each one's instincts.

thecasualoblivion · Jun 30, 2009

Excuse the double post, but I didn't reply to the second paragraph:

xechnao said:
What you are saying is that we can only expect and accept that Wotc or D&D or what have you will be the only force driving things in the future so there is no case here to discuss -it is futile to be thinking of things like that. I do not share this mindset.

Implied in most of your posts in this thread is the undercurrent that WotC and D&D as the driving force in the hobby is inherently a bad thing. You seem to want someone else to step up and take this leadership away from WotC and D&D. This "value judgement" colors the whole discussion, and indeed when you remove this premise from the original question, there isn't much left to the discussion.

ggroy · Jun 30, 2009

thecasualoblivion said:
Implied in most of your posts in this thread is the undercurrent that WotC and D&D as the driving force in the hobby is inherently a bad thing. You seem to want someone else to step up and take this leadership away from WotC and D&D. This "value judgement" colors the whole discussion, and indeed when you remove this premise from the original question, there isn't much left to the discussion.

Going back into history, TSR could have lost its "top dog" status to White Wolf during the 1990's. If WotC didn't step up to the plate and bail out TSR back in 1997, most likely we would not even be talking about a 3E/3.5E D&D nor a 4E for that matter. If TSR would have ended up filing for bankruptcy, most likely the D&D intellectual property would have been tied up in bankruptcy court for many years. This would especially be the case in a chapter 7 bankruptcy (ie. liquidation). Possibly long enough for an entire generation off the market.

thecasualoblivion · Jun 30, 2009

xechnao said:
I am not saying it will happen. I am saying "what if..." just to check out our instincts. Wizards is concerned about the hobby market. The hobby is a creative lot and this makes things somehow interesting. Things are a bit more dynamic and perhaps unpredictable. There has been an indie movement, there have been various games that have had something to say. There has not been something really that groundbreaking to really shake up things -or perhaps it has, thinking of the OGL movement- but it is not that difficult to try to imagine and accept the premise of the thread. And the way of acceptance here is not something that you should really think too hard about. As Scribble noted there is not enough information for such a thing. The new game could be as awesome as you want it to be. The important thing is that it is something so much noticeable in the community as to make it interesting to consider about. This will vary from person to person of course. But it is something you can convince yourself to be thinkable and so to discuss about its plausible or rather possible consequences, according to each one's instincts.

So, we're talking wishful thinking here? Trying to convince ourselves that an alternative to D&D as the hobby leader is possible? We've had the OGL for almost a decade now, and it really hasn't delivered this revolution, and it hasn't done anything to change the D&D centeredness of the hobby. If it hasn't already happened, I don't see why it would in the future. The same was true of the indie community before the OGL.

Closest the RPG world has ever been to something like this was the rise of Vampire: the Masquerade in the late 90's. Its the only time D&D's success and dominance has ever been approached.

I'm going to right out say that personally wanting an alternative for D&D or favoring the indie/OGL communities is different than wanting these things to become the standard for the hobby in place of D&D are two separate things. I don't see how we can discuss your OP without settling this value question.

xechnao · Jun 30, 2009

thecasualoblivion said:
With the possible exceptions of WoW and GW Warhammer(and possibly the Dune video game which I am not familiar with), all of the things you mentioned created something new. D&D, M:tG, Quake and Diablo created markets that previously didn't really exist. WoW and GW Warhammer took an existing market, and then did it so much better that they destroyed the competition.

RPGs are in their 4th decade now, and those have been four decades packed with innovation. There really isn't much room for this sort of revolutionary innovation at this point, and frankly WotC's DDI initiative is probably as close as we're going to get. As for going the WoW/GW Warhammer route it requires both creative and business resources which non-WotC entities in the RPG world just don't possess. A slick designer may appear here and there and create something neat, but they can't compete with WotC's deep list of top notch designers, can't compete with WotC's deep pockets, can't match WotC's production values, and don't have the resources to go into new territory like the DDI.

I believe there is room for innovation. Wotc may have a list of top notch designers -which is not really a given, at least not for me- but said designers have to cater to more things than design the best thing they can. And everything they have to cater for, they have to also do it along with the legacy factor that they have to respect up to some point. Now regarding the deep pockets: tabletop rpgs do not really require that a big pocket to explode. Sure, marketing helps a lot but it still possible for the bomb to come. Look at the origins of D&D itself. Look at the successful titles in the book trade. Sure, there is competition with the existing leading force, but this is why the thread is made like this. If there were not such a thing I would just be asking about when people think the next big hit title will come and how it will be like.

Regarding the new markets of quake and like. I do not think this really holds. Ok, there are casual gamers and hardcore gamers. Did quake create many new casual gamers? I am not sure about that. It will have created some, sure, but not so many as to be talking about a new market. I would say that what mostly happened is that the gamers who were playing Sierra adventure games and TSR rpgs passed to the new gaming interface of 3d action.

thecasualoblivion · Jun 30, 2009

I think its difficult to discuss this topic as it has unfolded. You want to discuss and speculate about the possibility of an Open Game Content RPG that revolutionizes the RPG world and supplants D&D. Between the OP and your responses, you seem to have an unstated premise that D&D being removed as the driving force of the hobby is a positive thing. This eliminates the two valid responses "this is a pipe dream, unlikely to happen" and "this dream would suck, and I prefer D&D dominance" and tries to lead the discussion away from them.

So, I'll just restate that this is largely a pipe dream, unlikely to happen, and that I salute our WotC overlords and look forward to many more years of a D&D dominated RPG industry. If something came up and knocked D&D off its pedestal I'd be sad.