Pros and Cons

Once again I need help. I am trying to convince my other players that we should switch from 3e to 4e. But since I don't know too much about it, and my group doesn't know anything at all. I was wondering if I get some quick pros and cons. What are you favourite things about 4e? What was changed that you didn't like.

As always your help is very appreciated.

Thank you so much.

Nimble
Toronto, ON

In general what does the group like and dislike in RPGs? It would be better I think to tailor the list to your group.

What are you favourite things about 4e?

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That I have huge amounts of goodrightfun playing it and that it cut my workload as DM to about 1/5.

Crothian> My party loves the hack and slash, treasure, and general adventuring. i would say that role playing is important but, sometimes not at the top of their list.

Jack> A great point. Is it the rules?

I am looking for the gritty gritty details. The nuts and bolts

As PC's level something cool happens every single level. To EVERYONE!

Be it new feats, new powers, increased stats or ability scores.

All PC's are more durable/less fragile at low levels. This includes wizards who can have AC as high as the Fighter depending on the build.

It's more team oriented strategy rather than individual raw power. This I guess could be a pro or a con depending on where you're coming from.

I'm sure I could think of more but it's late and I must to bed

Nimble Goodbarrel said:

Crothian> My party loves the hack and slash, treasure, and general adventuring. i would say that role playing is important but, sometimes not at the top of their list.

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I feel the game is more focused on the dungeon and that type of adventure. The skill list is smaller focusing more on skills that will be used in an adventure. All characters will have something to do and will have choices on what to do.

Awsome. This is good stuff. What about the races? Is combat any easier to learn? What about magic? What the heck are these surges all about so on and so forth.

Thanks everyone

I DM so I will respond as to how it cut MY workload...

1. Monsters are easier for me to understand/run.

All the info they need is there in the stats. If the monster has a power that power is explained in the stats, no need to cross reference.

By giving the monsters "types" I can better grasp how they're going to function in a fight. Makes it easier for me to set up a fight.

2. Monsters are easier for me to make/modify/tweak.

The numbers are pretty simple. There are really only a few "classes" for the monsters that generate the main numbers. Racial modifiers, and "class powers" fill in the rest.

3. The numbers are reasonably balanced.

With the previous edition there were countless times when someone would pull out some random spell/feat/special ability that somehow seemed to invalidate various challenges and obstacles I threw at the players.

So far I haven't noticed that. Despite the already myriad numbers of player options out there that my players seem to be really enjoying, nothing has really surprised me with its ability to just short circuit the encounter I spent a long time building.

4. That said, encounters don't take a long time to build.

I find I spend most of my time thinking up the scenario, making it interesting again as opposed to just working out the numbers.


5. The compendium is a godsend.

I do most of my work setting up for a game on the computer. Being able to search for something, and then cut/paste it is AWESOME. With a capital Awesome.

6. I find I don't need to have every book at my disposal to make an interesting challenging adventure.

The DMs guide, the bonus tools, Asmor's monster maker and the compendium are pretty much it.

I have others just because I like to collect, or I like the fluff (like the manual of the planes) but not because I feel I really NEED them to create a challenging adventure.

Thats some of my reasons.

Pros:
- Easier on DM's who don't have that much time.
- Monsters are easier to run without a substantial loss in variety.
- Easier to introduce to new players who want a game that is easier to play.
- Some nice ideas here and there.
- Combat less swingy (unfortunately, this usually results in combat grind where the result of the battle is known but still takes a while to play out).
- The game mathematics is very well balanced (sometimes annoyingly so).
- The DDI support is absolutely fantastic.

Cons:
- Black Box mentality to mechanics (flavour and mechanics therefore vary in how well they mesh - at times quite poorly).
- Combat duration has not been significantly reduced (although the number of rounds increases meaning players have more turns).
- All characters have the same powers mechanic (good for keeping playing levels equal, poor for making characters feel different).
- To run smoothly, you need minis, you need power cards, and you need things to indicate condition of the pieces involved. Tracking these conditions gets very fiddly otherwise.
- Some of the "good" complexity and option richness that was in the game has been sucked out of it. Characters tend to be a lot more standardized according to an optimal suggested build.

I suppose the crux is, a lot of people will read those cons and actually find them plusses. Those are the people that really dig 4E. For those that find them cons, 4E seems a step backwards rather than forwards.

Our group both jumped and was pushed into 4E. The current result is that our 4E game is still running (and enjoyably so from my own perspective). However, we have had one player quit the game (he absolutely hates 4E), we have another three (including myself) who prefer 3.x and we have 3 (including the DM) who like it. The end result however is that we are going back to 3.5 for a new campaign (while still running the 4E game here and there).

The thing to do is to try it with your group and see how it goes. Personally, I would have preferred a little more complexity in the game rather than the at times drastic streamling that has happened.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Nimble Goodbarrel said:

A great point. Is it the rules?

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Simply put, monsters are easy. You can fit them on a 3x5 index card, with ALL the relevant information right there. With DDI (the online thing with Wizards), you can print off the monster statblocks, and boom, you're ready. Monster balance is also easier, because an encounter's challenge is based on a total number of XP worth of the encounter. That way you can build the encounter towards your target number. So, 8 monsters of Party level -4 is equal to three monsters party level+4, or something like that. Monsters are easier to adjust on the fly, and easier to use lower or higher level monsters against your PCs (although you might want to make some adjustments).

But, you want to make the case? Okay:

• In general, the system as a whole is less complex.
• You're less likely to lose your turn because of bad effects. No more save or die effects means that you can't go from full HP to dead/out of the action in one round. Save or Suck (paralysis/stunned/petrification/etc) is also out for the most part (except for Stunning); rarely do you spend your turn sitting out because you failed a saving throw. (In the case of Petrification, you have to fail 3 before you are out).
• Spellcasters are less complicated. Every rule and all the information pertaining to a spell can fit on a 3x5 index card. You no longer have to sift through tons of books to get this spell and that spell, nor keep track of all your spell slots, or deal with preparing for the next day. (Of course, spellcasters work exactly like fighters in terms of , so your fighter players might be surprised with the increase in resource management).
• Healing is better. 1) There are more healers than the Cleric, and they can do it very competently. 2) Classes that heal can heal people + attack + move. No need to be JUST the medic, you can be a medic AND kick ass. 3) You don't have to waste FUN resources to heal - you get a separate amount of healing abilities, that do not cut into your ass-kicking spells. 4) Everyone can heal themselves at least ONCE per fight, and can heal themselves outside of combat.
• Simpler math. Buff spells don't make you recalculate your to-hit and damage and track the duration, etc etc. You just add +x to whatever for this round/the next two rounds/the encounter.
• Fighters can do more than just make attacks; they have more options within their rounds. Spellcasters can still cast spells once they've blown their cool stuff.
• If you played high level, Fighters are no longer eclipsed by wizards; fighters are THE melee class in the game. Every class is balanced against every other class.
• Grapple is simpler. Also, you have a decent chance of escaping a grapple; a monster with the equivalent of Improved Grab isn't going to obliterate you.
• Your class features (like a rogue's sneak attack) work 99% of the time. So a rogue can sneak attack anything he wants. It's also easier to get the opportunity for sneak attack; more ways than merely flanking.
• No empty levels. You get SOMETHING every level. New powers every odd level, and with even levels you get a feat, a +1 to hit/skills, every four levels you get +1 to two stats (and every 10 levels, you get a +1 to all stats).
• Again, you rarely have to reference the book; almost all the information you need with regards to any ability can fit on a 3x5 index card. You will have to reference conditions (until you memorize them), but otherwise, all the relevant info is there.