Dominate: Can you compel free actions?

the Jester

Legend
Right, exactly. But implicit in the concept above of you not getting free actions is that it says it chooses 'your action' (singular). It would be ludicrous for you to be able to take extra actions outside of the dominate control... so... what rule prevents the PC from taking free actions (like talking)?

Cause if the PC can take free actions, they'd certainly be under the control of the dominate. Which brings back the 'Okay, it drops your weapon then jumps you into the pit with the Otyugh' theory of dominate.

I'm with you except for the bolded part.

Dominate gives the dominator the ability to choose your one action on your turn. In addition to this action, a character can take free actions while dazed. The way I read it, a dominated character can certainly use its own free actions, for example to talk or burn an action point. However, burning an action point is pointless because the character cannot make use of the action he is given by it, as he is dazed. But, for example, a warlord ally could use commander's strike to give our poor dominated victim an attack against an enemy.
 

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Griogre

First Post
I really REALLY hate how any high cliff is considered inappropriate for characters below level 11. That is absolutley ridiculous and I won't stand for it.
I don't see the problem with this. Do you put Orcus or any other paragon or epic monster in a first level dungeon and actually expect the PCs to fight him?

The cliff thing is the same to me. Are then cliffs in my world that PCs can fall off and die from? Of course. But I don't site my adventures around them, unless I do want some of them to fall off and die.

Back to dominated and free actions. When I have a dominated PC I do allow the PC to talk and do some other types of free actions, but aways with the caviot that the PC can't do anything against the "special friend" that has it dominated. That PC is willing to die for that "friend" and simply won't directly or indirectly harm it.

Yes, I have allowed Warlords to have the dominated PC make a commander's strike, but only what the PC thinks are enemies. The PC *really* thinks the creature that dominated him/her is an ally is how I have the player treat it. If I were ever to have a player that couldn't role play that I would take over the character for while it was dominated and run it with input from the player.

Obviously, I don't believe domination changes how the PC views the other monsters.
 

Flipguarder

First Post
My problems are cliffs are a common part of geography. Are Demon-kings going to be all over the world in random places?

Saying that its ok to not have cliffs in low level campaigns to me is like saying its not ok to have rivers. They're just around. Obviously I'm not going to intentionally plan for charging bull rushing pushing enemies to ambush the pcs while they are staring off a cliff. But they are kinda necessary for my campaign setting.

But this is getting WAY off topic.

I have my rules for cliffs and what-not.
 

keterys

First Post
Obviously I'm not going to intentionally plan for charging bull rushing pushing enemies to ambush the pcs while they are staring off a cliff. But they are kinda necessary for my campaign setting.

All that matters is that the cliffs not be part of the encounter. They can be just as present as Orcus, otherwise. Ie, if the players _force the issue_, that's different. 'We set the ambush up at the cliff edge' isn't quite as bad as 'We hunt down Iuz in his lair' at low level... but it's also easier to scare them off of the Iuz hunt before ever getting to him :)

A well-known published adventure path includes running into a Beholder at 3rd level... which is all well and good _as long as it's not trying to kill the PCs_. Same concept - you can have the thing that's way too high level around, it just can't be something the PCs are forced to deal with at far too low level.

Griogre said:
Back to dominated and free actions. When I have a dominated PC I do allow the PC to talk and do some other types of free actions, but aways with the caviot that the PC can't do anything against the "special friend" that has it dominated. That PC is willing to die for that "friend" and simply won't directly or indirectly harm it.

Interesting that you allow the warlord to let the PC attack other enemies, but not the one dominating. Do you change that at all depending on the way dominate is written for the critter? Ie, it's basically under the RP of the moment of what the character thinks are enemies?

After all, some of them enthrall the target sufficiently that I'd think it would flip its priorities. Or the dominating creature could just say 'These are your allies, don't attack them'?

The back and forth as the different orders (vampire vs. warlord, say) and the confused subject could be amusing some of the time though :)

Jester said:
The way I read it, a dominated character can certainly use its own free actions, for example to talk or burn an action point. However, burning an action point is pointless because the character cannot make use of the action he is given by it, as he is dazed.

At many tables, the AP rule gets around the dazed restriction (aside: anyone got a rules cite for which rule 'wins' there?) - if FAQ or errata declared that you can AP while dazed to take two standard actions, would you allow the player to act as if not dominated for that action? (for example, attacking the creature dominating it)

For those who interpret 'The dominating creature chooses your action.' as containing an implicit 'only 1 action, no matter what' - what if it wants to control your use of a free action? Could the player then take a standard action as they wish?

It seems very unlikely to me that adding a restriction that it's only one action is desirable for play. It also would have been extremely poor rules writing to implicitly give the creature full control of its free actions without providing explanatory text. Of course, they could have forgotten that dazed is 1 action only with respect to minor/move/standards.

I guess it's worth submitting to wotc for errata, either way. While 'chooses your action' covers the 'any time you get an action' just fine, it specifically creates confusion that either 'chooses one action for you each round' and 'chooses your actions' would solve.
 

Infiniti2000

First Post
For those who interpret 'The dominating creature chooses your action.' as containing an implicit 'only 1 action, no matter what' - what if it wants to control your use of a free action? Could the player then take a standard action as they wish?
I interpret it that way, but you have tossed in a false corollary. I don't also think you retain any other actions. The dominating creature choose your action, and that's all you get. So, your last question there is not relevant.

Now, would I throw in a free action there, for flavor purposes? Sure, why not. But, explicitly not allowing free actions, too, will alleviate any other unforeseen gotchyas.
 

keterys

First Post
Fair enough. So - in the example I gave where a hazard required a free action to avoid immobilization, it would be literally impossible for a dominated creature to escape without outside interference, because they could either take a free action or a move, but not both?
 

Lizard

Explorer
Actually, how would the creature even know to use Quick Draw? Does it get an inventory of your abilities? Or, can the creature use its own Quick Draw (assuming it has it)?

When I dominate a monster, my DM tells me all of its at-will powers. I think it's reasonable that a dominator could get an "inventory" of what his new puppet can do.
 

Lizard

Explorer
How does domination work in regards to a suicidal act, like walking off a cliff? Do you get a new save to resist?

Since the dominated creature is not using forced movement, no, he doesn't get a save, IMO. He's using his own movement to stroll merrily off the cliff.

(This is great when I'm dominating a monster. When they're dominating me... well, fair is fair. At that point, it's up to the DM if he wants to use a power which is supposed to be annoying but not lethal to kill characters. The problem is, this makes Dominate in an area with a lot of dangerous terrain a lot more powerful than it otherwise is. OTOH, I often use dominate, or other forced movement, to make an enemy move into an allies zone, or away from one of their allies buffing zones/auras, etc.)
 

Griogre

First Post
Back to dominated and free actions. When I have a dominated PC I do allow the PC to talk and do some other types of free actions, but aways with the caviot that the PC can't do anything against the "special friend" that has it dominated. That PC is willing to die for that "friend" and simply won't directly or indirectly harm it.

Yes, I have allowed Warlords to have the dominated PC make a commander's strike, but only what the PC thinks are enemies. The PC *really* thinks the creature that dominated him/her is an ally is how I have the player treat it. If I were ever to have a player that couldn't role play that I would take over the character for while it was dominated and run it with input from the player.

Obviously, I don't believe domination changes how the PC views the other monsters.

Interesting that you allow the warlord to let the PC attack other enemies, but not the one dominating. Do you change that at all depending on the way dominate is written for the critter? Ie, it's basically under the RP of the moment of what the character thinks are enemies?

After all, some of them enthrall the target sufficiently that I'd think it would flip its priorities. Or the dominating creature could just say 'These are your allies, don't attack them'?

The back and forth as the different orders (vampire vs. warlord, say) and the confused subject could be amusing some of the time though :)
I'm normally like someone up-tread who said that for creatures to be allies they both have to think so and only one has to think he is an enemy for them to be enemies. I think the domination is an exception to this general rule that forces a PC to treat someone who is an enemy as an ally.

Dominate is so tersely described that while the basic intent is clear as soon as it gets more complicated you can have very wide degrees of DM interpretation.

The way I look at it when I am running a game where a PC is dominated is I have two competing objectives: 1) I don't want the *player(s)* to negate the condition without doing whatever it takes to actually have the *character* negate the condition. 2) On the other hand, I still want the *player* to be able to roleplay and have as much fun as possible with the *character* while it is dominated.

Thus my working paraphrase of dominate is: 1) character is dazed, 2) the one significant action the player does this round with his character on his initiative is determined by the monster that dominated his character. That monster is limited to forcing the character to use one generic move, minor or standard action. The monster may also choose to force the dominated character to use a power, however, if the monsters does so - he may only force the character to use one of his at-will powers.
 
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keterys

First Post
Sounds good.

And yeah, I'm mostly asking lots of questions from an academic sense. Dominate is one of the more classic D&D chances to really break out the odd roleplay moments, during and after, that I'm very curious to see how people handle it and why.
 

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