Working the game

Aion

First Post
Hey. This is my first post here. I’m wondering what other people’s experience has been playing with friends who aren’t “good at D&D.”

This is my situation. A few months ago I started playing D&D after a 15-year hiatus (I’m 29) with A., who had never played before but was very enthusiastic about it, and the DM, who is a much more seasoned player than I am but was also returning to the game after a fairly long break.

Since it’s a small group, the DM plays a PC, a halfling rogue who helps out in combat but, obviously, doesn’t participate in strategic discussions and decision-making. My character is a half-elf paladin who, at level 8, is quite well-built (STR 18, CHA 17, CON 18… INT 5. We used the roll-4d6-drop-one method rather than standard arrays). A. plays a human cleric with a high score of STR 16. If she had read the Player’s Handbook and taken its advice, she would have built a Battle Cleric and chosen melee attacks. But instead she picks mostly WIS-based ranged attacks, and since her score is 13 (it had been 12, but when we reached level 8 she raised it at my insistence) they’re not always effective. Her second-highest score is INT 14, and she’s chosen training in Arcana, and her ability to cast rituals and identify magic items partially compensates for the lack of a wizard in the party, but isn’t much help in combat.

Now, despite how I might come off in the last paragraph, I’m not just a number cruncher. I appreciate the narrative and role-playing possibilities of an intellectually curious, somewhat scatter-brained cleric who, despite her considerable experience, has yet to select an area of focus, unlike her half-brother, a very charismatic but semi-retarded paladin who has devoted himself to smiting the foes of their god, in part because he’s too dumb to serve in any other way. But it can be frustrating for me when I get flanked by enemies and I have to spend a long time hacking at them because A. doesn’t land many attacks. (Of course, it’s frustrating for A., too, because she’d like to make a big contribution in an area besides healing, which she thinks of as a wussy skill, and she’s expressed jealousy that on a hit I do a minimum of 9 point of damage, while that’s about her maximum with an at-will. Oddly, she doesn’t seem to understand that attacks are directly related to ability scores and modifiers.) If our party were bigger, this probably wouldn’t be a problem, but with 2.5 PCs it’s tough, and I’m sure it will only get worse when we reach paragon tier, because the rules that assign monsters by level assume that PCs’ primary ability scores will be in the high teens by then.

So, getting back to the point, I’d like to know how you’ve played with allies who don’t quite grasp the basic mechanics of the game, or who made unfortunate character-building choices early on that affected development later. Did you take the didactic route, and if so, were there any explanations that worked particularly well? Did the DM dish out magic items to pad attack and damage bonuses?

Thanks for the tips
 

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Mort_Q

First Post
Point out the retraining rules on page 28 perhaps? Maybe the DM can allow the player to retrain all the way back through the 8 levels?
 

Dr_Sage

First Post
Hey. This is my first post here. I’m wondering what other people’s experience has been playing with friends who aren’t “good at D&D.”

This is my situation. A few months ago I started playing D&D after a 15-year hiatus (I’m 29) with A., who had never played before but was very enthusiastic about it, and the DM, who is a much more seasoned player than I am but was also returning to the game after a fairly long break.

Since it’s a small group, the DM plays a PC, a halfling rogue who helps out in combat but, obviously, doesn’t participate in strategic discussions and decision-making. My character is a half-elf paladin who, at level 8, is quite well-built (STR 18, CHA 17, CON 18… INT 5. We used the roll-4d6-drop-one method rather than standard arrays). A. plays a human cleric with a high score of STR 16. If she had read the Player’s Handbook and taken its advice, she would have built a Battle Cleric and chosen melee attacks. But instead she picks mostly WIS-based ranged attacks, and since her score is 13 (it had been 12, but when we reached level 8 she raised it at my insistence) they’re not always effective. Her second-highest score is INT 14, and she’s chosen training in Arcana, and her ability to cast rituals and identify magic items partially compensates for the lack of a wizard in the party, but isn’t much help in combat.

Now, despite how I might come off in the last paragraph, I’m not just a number cruncher. I appreciate the narrative and role-playing possibilities of an intellectually curious, somewhat scatter-brained cleric who, despite her considerable experience, has yet to select an area of focus, unlike her half-brother, a very charismatic but semi-retarded paladin who has devoted himself to smiting the foes of their god, in part because he’s too dumb to serve in any other way. But it can be frustrating for me when I get flanked by enemies and I have to spend a long time hacking at them because A. doesn’t land many attacks. (Of course, it’s frustrating for A., too, because she’d like to make a big contribution in an area besides healing, which she thinks of as a wussy skill, and she’s expressed jealousy that on a hit I do a minimum of 9 point of damage, while that’s about her maximum with an at-will. Oddly, she doesn’t seem to understand that attacks are directly related to ability scores and modifiers.) If our party were bigger, this probably wouldn’t be a problem, but with 2.5 PCs it’s tough, and I’m sure it will only get worse when we reach paragon tier, because the rules that assign monsters by level assume that PCs’ primary ability scores will be in the high teens by then.

So, getting back to the point, I’d like to know how you’ve played with allies who don’t quite grasp the basic mechanics of the game, or who made unfortunate character-building choices early on that affected development later. Did you take the didactic route, and if so, were there any explanations that worked particularly well? Did the DM dish out magic items to pad attack and damage bonuses?

Thanks for the tips

Welcome here.

Well first and foremost: I would live to know if most people is having fun there. Becuse if they are, so let it be. Most movies and books are full of characters that are not as effective as the others.
But I agree with you that her wisdom is too low for that kind of cleric. All depends on what she wants and what your DM allows (I am not against a complete remake when needed). As a DM I would talk to her, explain the options, and let her have fun if she wants to play like this.


Secondly: you say you are not that worried about numbers but quite frankly your concept of "well built" annoys me. Personal oppinion of course.
And how can you play an int 5 character? Its one step from animal inteligence, not to mention against the RAW (have to check this one).

Quite frankly - no ofense meant - but your character would be a serious trouble in my table, much more tham hers.
 

DracoSuave

First Post
Rather, in her case, the point's pretty simple.

She doesn't want to just heal, she wants to get out there and smash some face. But she might feel pidgeonholed into being the healer, which is why she has those wisdom based attacks. She might feel she 'has' to take those.

So, instead of attacking her for having weak powers or even insisting she has to take Wisdom (she might not feel she has a choice in this group but to take 'healer wisdom-based powers', especially if you start dictating to her what powers she shouldn't take) ask her what she would -like- to do. Then, point at powers that allow her to do that, but also work towards her strengths.

So, let's say she wants to bash some faces in. Then suggest powers from the Cleric line that bash face.

'But we need a healer--' Shut up. No you don't. You need a -leader- and that's not the same as -healer.- So, let's say she says she wants to be in their face and beat in faces.

So you suggest Healing Strike. Not because it heals, but beause it smashes face. Healing is a secondary consideration.
Then Avenging Flame. 'Ongoing damage sucks' no it doesn't. If the power said 2[W]+Strength+5 you'd be suckling at that teat happily as a good power. Fact is, that's exactly what it -does- say. So take that. It's a good power.
Split the Sky. Bamn. Nothing says beat face like knocking a guy onto his ass.
Weapon of the Gods. Anything that makes me think of the Immigrant song goes on there.
Strengthen the Faithful. Moar Beat Face.

Of course, the healing she'll put out is awesome and delicious, but who cares. 'But clerics need Wisdom to--' Quiet. She doesn't. Other leaders get by without a massive boost to their healing, so why can't a Cleric? She wants high Intellegence? Go for it. Hell, she might even get better armor in Hide than in Chain.


Mind you, and this is the thing, she didn't have the benefit of lucksacking into high rolls like you did. She has to make due with 14s in a game designed around 16s. You lucksacked into a 16/16/17 situation. You're going to out perform her. And she -knows- it. Don't rub it in by telling her she then sucks and has to spend her points in a certain way. She's got a character concept, make it frakking work.


(Insert rant about rolled stats leading to character-envy and party-displeasure here)
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
First, insert obvious comments about how rolling stats will always lead to scenarios like this unless stats are totally irrelevant.

Second: if she wants to smash stuff,
1. Why did she take a leader and not a striker?
2. How is she jealous of you and not the rogue (who should be throwing out hits on the order of twice what you do, at least)?

On the subject of stats: is there a reason that the DM can't just let her swap her str and wis? Again, lead into comments about rolled vs point buy.

In general, my groups have always allowed at least one rebuild of characters after we learnt the rules. If she's totally incapable of learning the rules (which I seriously doubt), then it might be better to assist her in the rebuild.

Finally, insert comments about rolled stats here again.
 

DracoSuave

First Post
First, insert obvious comments about how rolling stats will always lead to scenarios like this unless stats are totally irrelevant.

Insert post-increasing agreement here.

Also, she might have been stuck with the cleric cause 'Party needs a healor, clerics are healorz go' is a fairly common sentiment. For her, tho, she sounds more like a warlord.

On the subject of stats: is there a reason that the DM can't just let her swap her str and wis? Again, lead into comments about rolled vs point buy.

Oh hell, why not just let her use those stats on a Warlord? Then she'd be A OK like fonzy.

In general, my groups have always allowed at least one rebuild of characters after we learnt the rules. If she's totally incapable of learning the rules (which I seriously doubt), then it might be better to assist her in the rebuild.

It is my firm opinion -as a DM- that the DM should be involved in the character creation process simply to avoid situations where the player cannot accomplish her role. The DM has a better handle on everything in the world and the rules than the new player, and it's his job to help with the fun. Why not help her create the character she -wants- and then go with it.

Finally, insert comments about rolled stats here again.

Reiterate previous post-count increasing rhetoric, coupled with statement of emotional plea to other DMs to avoid above situation
 


d.wartooth

First Post
Yup. point buy is the way to go in 4E. Choose your dump stat and buy away in the stuff you need. The fluff part is easy to accomplish with this, too. Your fighter has a Str 18? Cause he spent his youth training to swing a sword. Your wiz has an INT of 20? he spent his time in a library learning. Cleric with a Wis of 18? Prayer and meditation long walks around the Seminary or other place of contemplation gives one insight.
 

Zinovia

Explorer
I concur with all of the above on point buy versus rolled stats. I was the one in the last campaign who got unlucky on my stat rolls and had a 16 as my highest score compared to everyone else with 18's. Point buy avoids those issues - just don't restrict it to the standard array and you'll be able to build all kinds of characters.

I have a battle cleric that hits stuff with a big sword and still has plenty of healing to go around. It's quite possible to make a cleric based on strength, especially with the new goodies from Divine Power. Or go the other way - if she wants high strength and int, recommend that she play a warlord. The only leader in the group I run now is a tactical warlord, and we do fine. There's no reason she has to play a devoted (laser) cleric if she doesn't want to, but she should understand that the stats are what determine the likelihood of hitting. If she wants to hit, she needs to choose a class and powers that work off the stats she has. Or vice versa - put the stats where she needs them to use the types of powers she wants to use.
 

Aion

First Post
Well first and foremost: I would live to know if most people is having fun there. Becuse if they are, so let it be. Most movies and books are full of characters that are not as effective as the others.

Yes, we're having fun, though maybe a bit less so than at low levels, when we were all missing attacks together.

It's funny that this has turned into a discussion of rolling's drawbacks, because I think the scores we started out with were pretty normal. A.’s rolls were fine (almost all in the 11 to 14 range), but since then she’s been spreading plusses around rather than focusing on the development of one or two skills. My rolls weren't spectacular, but I got some high scores thanks to racial bonuses (+2 CON, +2 CHA) and adding at levels 4 and 8. Sure, the INT 5 is ridiculous, but it provides occasional comic relief, and when a hero is very above average in several ways, I think it's interesting for him to be very below average in another. I don’t know what RAW is, but it sounds like it has something to do with RPGA, and I’m mostly interested in just playing with my friends.

[FONT=&quot]Switching classes to warlord is an unlikely option, since the DM has built an epic storyline about a religious conflict based on our choice of classes. Besides, my friend is clearly interested playing a character who wields magic so I don’t think she’d enjoy being a warlord. The alternate cleric builds you’ve suggested are all good ideas, but my main problem is figuring out how to get A. to enact them without seeming like a controlling jerk. Now I’m realizing this is more of an etiquette issue and probably shouldn’t have been posted on the rules board, but thanks anyway for the replies.[/FONT]
 

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