Proposal: Allow articles that were banned due to one feat or item

JoeNotCharles · Sep 20, 2009

Ok, one more, then hopefully the glut of proposals will stop forever!

There are a bunch of articles which we banned because of individual elements, in keeping with the old "don't include anything unless somebody asks for it" philosophy. This doesn't make much sense with the new "include everything unless somebody points out a problem" philosophy. So, I propose:

1. Allow the "Wolves of Maldeen" article from Dragon 364, except for the Wolfen Weapon.
2. Allow the "Ecology of the Dragonborn" article from Dragon 365, except for the Hurl Breath and Admixture Breath feats.
2a. Also allow the Admixture Breath feat. (There was wide agreement that "Hurl Breath" was out of line, but only one person said Admixture Breath was "kind of sketchy".)
3. Allow the "Treasures of Ashardalon" article from Dragon 365, except for the Belt of Mountain Endurance and the Ring of the Ghost Knight.
3a. Also allow the Ring of the Ghost Knight. (Again, wide agreement that Belt of Mountain Endurance was better than other items of the same level, but only one person mentioned Ring of the Ghost Knight, although he had a more substantive complaint than "sketchy".)

garyh · Sep 21, 2009

Yes to 1, 2a, and 3.

covaithe · Sep 21, 2009

YES to all of them. That's 1, 2, 2a, 3, and 3a. I don't remember why Ring of the Ghost Knight was considered a problem (was it an attack as a minor action? Could have been...) but having seen some epic level play now, it looks perfectly reasonable to me.

elecgraystone · Sep 21, 2009

LOL Covaithe, you know you just votes for AND against something right?

2 is dropping the Admixture Breath feat.
2a is allowing it.

As far as Hurl Breath, I didn't really see much of an issue with it before and less of one now. Really all it needed was dropping the burst 2 to burst 1 and it'd be fine. There are several feats that let characters change thier ranged attack into close/melee attacks. [nimble spell caster and sorcerous blade channeling for example] What's so bad about the reverse; Changing a close attack into a ranged?

JoeNotCharles · Sep 21, 2009

garyh said:
Yes to 1, 2a, and 3.

Uh, so you're voting to allow ONLY the Admixture Breath feat, and not the rest of the Dragonborn article? That's an odd preference.

elecgraystone said:
LOL Covaithe, you know you just votes for AND against something right?

Hmm, maybe this isn't as clear as I thought.

elecgraystone said:
2 is dropping the Admixture Breath feat.
2a is allowing it.

The Admixture Breath feat is currently not allowed, because we voted against the entire article. 2 is allowing everything in except Hurl Breath and Admixture Breath. It's not saying, "Allow everything else, but re-ban Admixture Breath" - it's not touching it at all.

JoeNotCharles · Sep 21, 2009

covaithe said:
YES to all of them. That's 1, 2, 2a, 3, and 3a. I don't remember why Ring of the Ghost Knight was considered a problem (was it an attack as a minor action? Could have been...) but having seen some epic level play now, it looks perfectly reasonable to me.

Yeah, I think it was attack as a minor action.

covaithe · Sep 21, 2009

Oops. I, uh, would claim to have meant only 2a, but in fact, I just didn't read them all that closely. 2a is what I'll go for. :blush:

garyh · Sep 22, 2009

JoeNotCharles said:
Uh, so you're voting to allow ONLY the Admixture Breath feat, and not the rest of the Dragonborn article? That's an odd preference.

2a says ALSO allow the Admixture feat, so I assumed a vote for 2a was a vote for 2+Admixture.

In any case, I actually don't have a problem with Hurl Breath, given the context elecgraystone mentioned. So, actually...

YES to the entire Dragonborn article.

CaBaNa · Sep 22, 2009

So long as it doesn't make enlarged breathe obsolete, hurl breathe is fine. In conjunction with enlarged breathe it's really good, but at the cost of two feats instead of just 1.

elec made a good point, and I'm just seconding that.

JoeNotCharles · Sep 23, 2009

Well, I didn't originally propose the 3 most contentious items, but since garyh has voted for one of them, I might as well list them now:

Wolfen Weapon: 0 YES, 0 NO
Rest of "Wolves of Maldeen": 2 YES, 0 NO
Hurl Breath: 1 YES, 0 NO
Admixture Breath: 2 YES, 0 NO
Rest of "Ecology of the Dragonborn": 2 YES, 0 NO
Belt of Mountain Endurance: 0 YES, 0 NO
Ring of the Ghost Knight: 2 YES, 0 NO
Rest of Treasures of Ashardalon: 2 YES, 0 NO

elecgraystone said:
As far as Hurl Breath, I didn't really see much of an issue with it before and less of one now. Really all it needed was dropping the burst 2 to burst 1 and it'd be fine.

CaBaNa said:
So long as it doesn't make enlarged breathe obsolete, hurl breathe is fine. In conjunction with enlarged breathe it's really good, but at the cost of two feats instead of just 1.

Just so everybody's clear, "Hurl Breath" is an "area burst 2 within 10", which is a 5x5 square, and "Enlarged Breath" is a "blast 5", which is also a 5x5 square. Hurl Breath has not been officially errata'd to a burst 1.

Please don't let this derail into an argument over Hurl Breath, I really don't care about it. I just want the stuff that everybody agrees about to pass.