3rd Party Products - Do You Care?

GnomeWorks said:

I was unaware there were that many.

Could you do a breakdown of what they are? Adventures, monster books, etc?

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This is probably not a complete list, but I tried hard. I omitted things like Feudal Characters: Noble and the original 18 Remarkable Races releases which have since been re-released as part of a larger product.

Adventures:
Anointing the Seer
Barrow Grounds
Cesspools of Arnac
Citadel of the Corruptor
City of Talon
Critter Encounters: Bugged Out
Curse of the Kingspire
Dragora's Dungeon
A Fistful of Zinjas
Forges of the Mountain King
Forgotten Portal
Forgotten Tomb of Felgar the Goblin King
Heart of Erenland
Hearts of Chaos
Heroic Encounters: Combat Mayhem
Home for Wayward Minions
Horthnog and the Crimson Daggers
The Indomitable Fire Forest of Innenotdar
In Search of Adventure
Iron Mountains
Isle of the Sea Drake
Mechanical Mayhem
Mists of Madness
Old Rock Tower
Oracle of Orcas
Raiders of Los Arch
Scions of Punjar
Scourge of the Rat-Men
The Scouring of Gate Pass
Sellswords of Punjar
Shelter from the Storm
Shrine of the Fallen Lama
Swamp of Timbermoor
Tankard Tales: Willowbark's
Temple of Outsiders
Three Days Until Dawn
Thrones of Punjar
War in the Deep
What's Mine's Yours
Wild Hills
Woods of Woe
Wraith Recon Mission Pack I: Skies of Fire
Wrath of the River King
Wyrmslayer
Wyvern Mountain

Campaign Settings:
Adventurer's Guide to Cthonia
Alluria Campaign Setting Guide
Dave Arneson's Blackmoor: the First Campaign
Kingdoms of Kalamar Fantasy Campaign Setting
Punjar: the Tarnished Jewel
Raider's Guild Player's Guide
Scarrport: City of Secrets
War of the Burning Sky Campaign Guide
War of the Burning Sky Player's Guide
Wraith Recon
Wraith Recon: Enemies Within

Player Supplements:
Advanced Class: Druid
Advanced Class: Sorcerer
Advanced Player's Guide
The Blackguard Player Class
Book of Races
Book of Vicious Damnation
Book of Vicious Damnation 2
Buck-A-Batch: Magic Armor
Buck-A-Batch: Magic Boots
Buck-A-Batch: Magic Bracers
Buck-A-Batch: Magic Potions
Buck-A-Batch: Magic Rings
Buck-A-Batch: Magic Shields
Buck-A-Batch: Magic Weapons
Buck-A-Batch: Wondrous Items
Castoffs and Crossbreeds
Clever Classes: Explorer
Corners of the Realm: the Myrddin
Corners of the Realm: the Tvari
Critical Augmentation Feats
Dark Classes: Assassin
The Elkram
Esoterica: Grafted
Fantastic Races: the Arak
Fantasy Class: Martialist
Forgotten Heroes: Fang, Fist, and Song
Forgotten Heroes: Scythe and Shroud
Hero's Handbook: Dragonborn
Hero's Handbook: Eladrin
Hero's Handbook: Immortal Heroes
Hero's Handbook: Tiefling
Huxtropy
The Kroola
The Kroola: Koldbloods and Karnivores
The Linotaur
Living Constructs
Lunar Scrolls
Missing in Action
Pact of the Angelic Choirs
Pact of Blood
Pact of the Dragon Lords
Pact of Ghosts
Pact of the Vermin Lords
Paragon Races: Centaur, Ogre, and Succubus
Paths to Prestige: Centurion
Paths to Prestige: Fell Knight
Phrenic Power: Mentalist
Phrenic Shards
Player's Option: Flaws and Merits
Power Alteration Feats
Power Pack: Heroic Cleric
Power Pack: Heroic Fighter
Power Pack: Heroic Rogue
Power Pack: Heroic Wizard
Quintessential Fighter
Quintessential Wizard
Races of Fantasy: the Demigod
Races of the Shroud: the Apelord
Races of the Shroud: the Half-Dead
Races of Violet Dawn: Ngakoi
Races of Violet Dawn: Skarren
Races of Violet Dawn: Zeidian
Remarkable Races: Compendium of Unusual PC Races
Secrets of Necromancy
The Shroudborn
Shrouded Paths: the Unbroken
The Witch Doctor
The Witch Player Class

Mixed Supplements:
A Clan of Wretches
Codex Venenorum
Combat Essentials 1: Critical Matters
A Drake Miscellany
Kobold Ecologies
Monstercology: Orcs
Plague
A Pox Upon You!

Magazines:
Combat Advantage #1-12
Dragon's Hoard #1
Dragon Roots #0-3
Friar's Almanac #1
Kobold Quarterly #7 + 9-10
Level Up #1-2
Signs & Portents #61-63 + 69
Sorcerer's Scrolls #42-44

DM Supplements:
By Skill Alone
Gods of the Shroud
Hard Boiled Ideas: Armies
Hard Boiled Ideas: Cultures
Markets & Merchandise
Monster Maker
Points of Light II: The Sunrise Sea
Quick Kill
Shrouded (something or other): the Purifiers
Skill Conduit Contest

Monster Books:
Blackdirge's Dungeon Denizens
Creature Collection
Critter Cache: Animals & Beasts
Critter Cache: Big Bugs
Critter Cache: Daemons
Critter Cache: Fey Folk
Critter Cache: Prehistoric Beasts
Horrors of Halloween
Medieval Bestiary: Anthropophagi
Medieval Bestiary: Morrigan
Medieval Bestiary: Witch Puppet
Poisoncraft: Venomous Villains: the Syrallax
Shrouded Horrors: the Death-Mother

3rd party, in and of itself, is not a selling point. But then, WotC, in and of itself, is not a selling point either.

What I want is enough content that I find useful. I don't care which publisher it is from.

I mostly play 4e. I mostly do not care about 3rd party products. I have purchased some third party accessories, including maps, iniatitive trackers, and lots of miniatures for my painting hobby. I have never purchased a 3rd party book or adventure, and do not believe that I likely ever will.

GMSkarka said:

Just to give you an anecdote that you might find interesting:

Adamant published 4E stuff, under our "VENTURE 4th" banner. It did OK, sales-wise, but really no better than our other lines.

In August, we released our first PATHFINDER support product, TOME OF SECRETS.

Just in August and September alone, the sales for the PATHFINDER product, quantitatively speaking (since it's a different price than the 4E stuff, I'll just go with number of copies sold) have reached the level of sales of all of our 4E stuff combined, since their release. Monetarily, it's not even close (since the 4E stuff was mostly $2 short PDFs, and the TOME PDF is $10).

So, obviously, there is a widely-sustainable market for 3rd Party product. Just not for 4E.

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How much of the success of the "Tome of Secrets" book, do you believe may be attributed to it having a 1st mover advantage (or almost 1st mover) in the Pathfinder 3pp market?

The only 3rd-party products I bought during my 3.5 days were settings and expansions for those settings. Well, there were one or two outstanding exceptions, like Chaositech by Malhavoc, but I was mostly uninterested in rules supplements.

That's what I would have liked to see for 4e, but haven't: Good, high-quality settings. As a result, I haven't bought any third-party materials.

In theory, I'd also buy 3rd-party adventures, but in practice I haven't needed any more than I already have. In theory, more monsters would also be nice. I generally prefer to keep 3pp materials on the DM's side of the screen.

I have zero interest in third-party player option books, no matter the system. I know those were huge sellers under 3e, but I just never got into them. I don't need extra classes, unless those classes are setting-specific. I don't need extra races, unless those races are setting-specific. Basically, I count on WotC for my core stuff, and don't need third parties for that. Books of setting-free races, classes, feats, etc. just bore and/or worry me.

-O

GMSkarka said:

So, obviously, there is a widely-sustainable market for 3rd Party product. Just not for 4E.

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Impressive, and no less than expected I would reckon. Isn't there a danger that Pathfinder will have it's own, short-lived 3pp bubble though?

I've no desire for 3pp 4e material or for any edition of D&D, I looked at some of the 3e stuff and found it mostly meh, even the big names like Paizo never hit the spot for me. Any holes if the WotC stuff I fill myself.

As a player, I really cannot conceive of any 3pp that would convince me to purchase it. The 1pp has been of high quality and quantity. As a DM, I do wish there were more adventures. Unfortunately, what I really want is Eberron adventures, which is prevented by licensing issues.

ggroy said:

How much of the success of the "Tome of Secrets" book, do you believe may be attributed to it having a 1st mover advantage (or almost 1st mover) in the Pathfinder 3pp market?

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Note that the 4e PH came out June 6, 2008.

Adamant's rat man adventure for 4e came out July 12, 2008 (It was not put out under the GSL). It was a low level adventure for starting characters, I think the idea was to target people looking for adventures to try out their new 4e game.

I think adamant tried to place itself to make a 1st mover advantage in 4e as well.

Most of the 3rd party stuff I bought for 3.5 were for things that WotC didn't give me.

Aka, lots of psionics stuff ;p