Converting True Dragons

Cleon · Aug 15, 2014

freyar said:
Hmm. I'd go for that, except we're already making them bigger than Green with the Bronze size progression. So I'd either (a) give them the same size as Bronze with standard damage values or (b) give them the Green size progression and your proposed Increased Claw Damage ability. Which do you prefer?

This dragon is 38 feet long, which is closer to a 1E Green Dragon (36 feet) than a 1E Bronze Dragon (42 feet), which suggests we should make them Green Dragon size.

They do have high Hit Dice though, which usually indicates a larger size like the Bronze.

However, they also have the same bite damage as a Green Dragon plus 1d8 damage claws.

Overall I'd go for the "Green plus Increased Claw Damage" option.

However, it's pointless question since Bronze and Green dragons use the same size progression in 3E.

If we wanted to make it bigger we'd have to use the Red Dragon / Gold Dragon size progression, and those species are a good deal larger than the original Sand Dragon (in 1E, a Red in 48 feet and a Gold 54 feet).

freyar · Aug 20, 2014

True enough! I wonder if I accidentally got the black entry when I was looking up the green progression or something. Well, whichever. Let's just give them stronger claws.

Cleon · Aug 20, 2014

freyar said:
True enough! I wonder if I accidentally got the black entry when I was looking up the green progression or something. Well, whichever. Let's just give them stronger claws.

That'd be my preference to, so I might as well update the Dune Dragon Working Draft.

freyar · Sep 2, 2014

OK, looks good then.

Speeds: normal base and flight speeds plus a burrow speed, I guess. I think we've done a fixed burrow speed (same for all age categories) in the past, so maybe 20 ft?

Cleon · Sep 3, 2014

freyar said:
OK, looks good then.

Speeds: normal base and flight speeds plus a burrow speed, I guess. I think we've done a fixed burrow speed (same for all age categories) in the past, so maybe 20 ft?

So the same speeds as the SRD Blue Dragon then?

You're forgetting that the original doesn't have a flight speed. In 1E AD&D, double slashes are swim speeds, so the original's MOVE: 12"//24" (9" in sand) means 12" on land, 24" swimming, 9" burrowing.

If it had a 24" flight speed it'd be a single slash - e.g. MOVE: 12"/24" (9" in sand).

So maybe give it the same land and water speed as a Bronze Dragon and the burrowing speed of a Blue Dragon?

Speed: 40 ft., burrow 20 ft., swim 60 ft.

freyar · Sep 8, 2014

I had the idea it shouldn't have a flight speed but couldn't find that in the discussion. In any case, I will agree to your suggestion.

I guess the only other special ability to note is

Spells (Sp): A dune dragon casts spells as a sorcerer of the indicated level but may choose spells from the Druid spell list as well as the Sorcerer/Wizard list.

It just feels sad there aren't any SLAs or anything to add.

Oh, the Obsidian Dragon has a perhaps more elegant solution for Increased Claw Damage. Following the precedent, we could use

Powerful Claws (Ex): All dune dragons gain Improved Natural Attack (claw) as a bonus feat.

Spells things out a little more clearly.

Cleon · Sep 11, 2014

freyar said:
I had the idea it shouldn't have a flight speed but couldn't find that in the discussion. In any case, I will agree to your suggestion.

I guess the only other special ability to note is

Spells (Sp): A dune dragon casts spells as a sorcerer of the indicated level but may choose spells from the Druid spell list as well as the Sorcerer/Wizard list.

Looks OK to me.

Updating the Dune Dragon Working Draft.

freyar said:
It just feels sad there aren't any SLAs or anything to add.

Well there are lots of dragons that didn't have any spell-like abilities in 1E AD&D but picked some up in 2E, so I think we'd be OK adding some appropriate SLAs to it if you like.

We still have breath weapon damage, caster levels, spell resistances, and subtype(s) to decide on.

freyar said:
Oh, the Obsidian Dragon has a perhaps more elegant solution for Increased Claw Damage. Following the precedent, we could use

Powerful Claws (Ex): All dune dragons gain Improved Natural Attack (claw) as a bonus feat.

Spells things out a little more clearly.

I prefer the current "Increased Claw Damage" version, since (a) it's based on a WotC-published special ability (namely the Fang Dragon), and (b) it allows the Dragon to pick Improved Natural Attack (claw) for even more clawing goodness.

freyar · Sep 15, 2014

I'll give you the Improved Claw Damage ability, but I'm building up favors to cash in later.

Let's deal with the variables you mention and return to SLAs later. I'm a bit torn on breath weapon damage --- I want the sand effect to come up sometimes, but it's powerful enough it shouldn't be too much. Maybe a middle-of-the-road kind of progression? How does the original's damage stack up (I guess it was 2-20)?

Cleon · Sep 15, 2014

freyar said:
I'll give you the Improved Claw Damage ability, but I'm building up favors to cash in later.

Let's deal with the variables you mention and return to SLAs later. I'm a bit torn on breath weapon damage --- I want the sand effect to come up sometimes, but it's powerful enough it shouldn't be too much. Maybe a middle-of-the-road kind of progression? How does the original's damage stack up (I guess it was 2-20)?

The original makes no mention of breath weapon damage, so it's either standard 1E AD&D dragon breath damage (damage = dragon's current hit points) or an all-or-nothing save to avoid being turned into sand.

I'd be inclined to use one of the tougher 3E dragon's damages, either a Red/Gold's 2d10 per age category or a Silver/Blue's 2d8.

freyar · Sep 24, 2014

I'm guessing the original was all-or-nothing. That seemed more popular back then.

2d8 per age category seems reasonable. Enough to give a risk of sand-ification.