Converting True Dragons

freyar · Nov 14, 2009

Well, as for Str, don't dragon ability progressions fall outside the usual rules for size changes?

But let's answer this question first: do we really want to increase the CR compared to the other drakes, as Cleon suggests? I think I'd like to keep them all the same, which suggests toning down the casting now that we're giving them a breath weapon, albeit illusory. What if we cut the top caster level down to CL 7? Could we get away with a tough CR 7 then?

As for the breath weapon, I thought the illusory nature was taken care of by the disbelief for 20% (or 10%) damage.

Shade · Nov 16, 2009

Cleon said:
I like illusory cold too for its "Shadow Breath".

Sounds good!

RavinRay said:
If it's illusory, then either it deals much less energy/cold damage than expected, or maybe it can be nonlethal damage (either by itself or in part). Few dragons deal nonlethal energy breath weapons without taking feats (amethyst force breath can be nonlethal).

If we model it off shadow evocation, it is a quasi-real, illusory breath weapon. It would deal normal damage unless an affected creature succeeds on a Will save. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth damage from the attack. If recognized as a shadow evocation, a damaging spell deals only one-fifth (20%) damage. Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save (or spell resistance) that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow evocation’s level (5th) rather than the spell’s normal level.

Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against the breath.

freyar said:
Well, as for Str, don't dragon ability progressions fall outside the usual rules for size changes?

Yes. And I'd prefer to keep them physically weaker than the demon drake.

freyar said:
But let's answer this question first: do we really want to increase the CR compared to the other drakes, as Cleon suggests? I think I'd like to keep them all the same, which suggests toning down the casting now that we're giving them a breath weapon, albeit illusory. What if we cut the top caster level down to CL 7? Could we get away with a tough CR 7 then?

Good point. We should probably keep them all comparable, so I'm fine with cutting back the caster level a bit.

RavinRay · Nov 16, 2009

Point considered on the illusory breath. I was just thinking of something different to do with it.

With the breath weapon and its plethora of SLA's, I do agree that it is formidable enough, so a modest caster projection should be enough to go with the CR.

freyar · Nov 17, 2009

Cut all the way back to the same caster progression as the other drakes (ending at CL 5)? Or let them start with a little casting and end at CL 6 or even 7?

Shade · Nov 17, 2009

I'd lean toward the latter option, as they still have a potentially weaker breath weapon than most.

freyar · Nov 17, 2009

How about CL 6? Instead of starting at CL 0 and increasing every 2 HD, we can start at CL 1 and increase every 2 HD.

Shade · Nov 19, 2009

That works for me.

Does this look OK?

Breath Weapon (Su): A shadow drake has one type of breath weapon, a cone of cold. However, its breath weapon is only quasi-real (see the shadow evocation spell). It deals normal damage unless an affected creature succeeds on a Will save. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth damage from the attack. If recognized as a shadow evocation, the breath weapon deals only one-fifth (20%) damage. Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against the breath.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—deeper darkness (very young or older); 2/day—rope trick (juvenile or older), shadow conjuration (creatures only; adult or older); 1/day—project image (ancient or older).

Add shadow evocation for old category?

freyar · Nov 20, 2009

I'd be ok adding shadow evocation as long as it doesn't change the CR in the long run.

On the breath weapon, I think it should still allow a Ref save as normal (see my take upthread).