DM'ing questions

BiggusGeekus · Oct 4, 2009

I've DMd 1e,2e, and 3e. After buying the DMG2, I want to try 4e.

1) How many encounters should I plan for a 6 hour game session? I am fully aware not all groups go at the same pace.

2) I want to have a sort of "running the gauntlet" series of encounters. The DMG2 give advice on how to string encounters together so that the PCs are at the end of their limits when the final fight occurs. How many encounters can I string together? I have plenty of room to fudge on this. The idea is to open the game where the PCs are in a "flashback" playing higher level characters who are overwelmed by the game's bad guys. So I want it to be fight-fight-fight with the PCs thinking they just might be able to pull it off and have them defeat one of the bosses ... then I'm going to drop a level n+2 solo on them. The real PCs will be starting the game exploring the site of this battle.

Dreadite · Oct 4, 2009

1. What tier are these encounters? My group quite handily got through 3-4 at heroic tier, but now that we're at high paragon tier we're lucky to get two, and usually get one. (Big group too, 8+ people, that slows it down a lot). If your group is smaller it might be faster, but if they're new I'd count on 2-3 and go from there.

2. Stringing encounters together can be really fun! I ran an encounter like this at level 5 that essentially was a super hard encounter, but I gave the PCs things to work with like traps, a healing spring, and other terrain that helped ease the burden and forced them to move around to keep up a magical barrier. As long as you give some kind of advantage the encounters can be really fun. Just make sure your PCs know they won't be able to get a short rest easily.

Honestly it sounds good. I find that the gauntlet can be really fun. Just avoid monster effects that last "until the end of the encounter" and/or unconsciousness/insta-kill stuff.

aco175 · Oct 4, 2009

6 hours of playing mostly fights should be 3-4, especially being new to 4e combat. There are several threads around about speeding up fights that could help, along with other tricks like getting players to help with things like tracking initiative and conditions.

If you have one or two easier encounters with monsters with abilities that do things like slow or poison you will get used to the conditions rules and ongoing damage rules. b Might help when you get to solos.

I like the idea of this forshadowing the campaign. It allows the party to see the BBEG and kind of know what they will be working towards. It also gives the players a chance to plot out feats and powers, and paths that further that goal.

AbdulAlhazred · Oct 4, 2009

BiggusGeekus said:
I've DMd 1e,2e, and 3e. After buying the DMG2, I want to try 4e.

1) How many encounters should I plan for a 6 hour game session? I am fully aware not all groups go at the same pace.

2) I want to have a sort of "running the gauntlet" series of encounters. The DMG2 give advice on how to string encounters together so that the PCs are at the end of their limits when the final fight occurs. How many encounters can I string together? I have plenty of room to fudge on this. The idea is to open the game where the PCs are in a "flashback" playing higher level characters who are overwelmed by the game's bad guys. So I want it to be fight-fight-fight with the PCs thinking they just might be able to pull it off and have them defeat one of the bosses ... then I'm going to drop a level n+2 solo on them. The real PCs will be starting the game exploring the site of this battle.

I think there are a few things you may find difficult about doing it this way. The basic concept is FINE and I think its very cool from a story perspective. The only issue I'd have and what may make it tough is that it has proven to be notoriously difficult to drop high level 4e PCs into players laps and have them play them well and efficiently right from the start. If they are really experienced 4e players with a good grasp of the rules and a week to look over their character and get familiar with it, then it might not be too big a consideration, though even then they'll probably play pretty slowly at first.

If they're new or only slightly experienced 4e players then chances are they're going to be pretty overwhelmed by playing a full paragon or epic tier character right off. Beyond that you'll probably find as a DM that you'll be a bit behind the 8 ball trying to keep track of everything etc on your first 4e combat that way.

There might be a couple ways to make it a bit easier. Don't give the PCs full spec 4e characters to run for this intro. Instead go through the NPC rules and perhaps even stat them up like monsters. You can give them a number of interesting powers to use, but now you can give them just the ones that will be really relevant and since you can write up monster powers however you want you can avoid really complex stuff that involves a lot of tracking, etc. The players won't have to worry as much about healing either and can concentrate more on the action parts of the intro, which are really the interesting parts.

It might seem like an odd concept to have the players playing "monsters" mechanically, but I actually think it will probably work out smoother. You all still get a chance to master the combat system and all that, but in a bit more controlled fashion. Just a thought, but you may find it useful.

Zaran · Oct 4, 2009

Yeah, I agree with Abdul. I definately wouldn't let them create their own characters before setting them up to die. They would be upset with you. Hand out some NPC type monsters and let them know it's only temporary. When the scene is over and they make new characters give them experience as if the new characters fought in the same number of encounters of their own level. Also, the players won't feel like the night was a waste. They will get an idea of what they are to face, have a little anxiety over the bad guy and feel like they are in something bigger.

Another thing you could do is let the new set of characters find a magic item that was important in the battle. It would give them a link to the old characters. You can make it so it's less powerful and will grow to the same power levels as the flashback with concordance like an intelligent item or artifact.

Very nice idea by the way.

BiggusGeekus · Oct 5, 2009

AbdulAlhazred said:
There might be a couple ways to make it a bit easier. Don't give the PCs full spec 4e characters to run for this intro. Instead go through the NPC rules and perhaps even stat them up like monsters. You can give them a number of interesting powers to use, but now you can give them just the ones that will be really relevant and since you can write up monster powers however you want you can avoid really complex stuff that involves a lot of tracking, etc. The players won't have to worry as much about healing either and can concentrate more on the action parts of the intro, which are really the interesting parts.

I think that's a great idea. This is a group new to 4e. One of the reasons I wanted to do things this way is so that we could stumble around with the combat system and it wouldn't matter because the "prelude" characters were doomed anyway. I had originally thought about a group of level 8 paladins, so everyone would have overlapping abilities, but I like the monster idea better because the group can simply focus on fewer abilities of a wider variety. That way we learn more of the game and its still no-pressure. I also don't have to worry about Mr Clever PC (there's always one) who will doubtless be taking very careful inventory of any magic items and their associated descriptions for potential future discovery ... not that I'd let a first level guy do that, but it still would have been a pain in the rear.

It even sets the stage for the party to play monsters, which after reading the DMG2, I want to experiment with. I think its a great way to keep people from getting bored when one PC is in the spotlight and Mr Wake Me When The Combat Starts (there's always one of these guys too) might even end up paying attention to the plot ... an occurrence I had formerly associated with the breaking of the Seven Seals and other harbingers of the End Times.

AntiStateQuixote · Oct 5, 2009

I would suggest starting the (N)PCs no higher than 7th level. At 7th level as full PCs they'll have 2 at-will powers, 3 encounter powers, 2 dailiy powers, and 2 utilities to deal with. That's quite a bit of stuff to learn and you'll see your game session CRAWL if you have much higher level than that.

Or the suggested NPC characters using the DMG guidelines is probably even better. Maybe give them one or two daily powers in addition to what they would have as NPC/monster characters.

I've played 4e since it first came out about 3 times per month. We tried a one shot with 21st level characters and even THAT ran really slowly because none of us knew the characters and what they can do. This is the first edition of the game where I think it's REALLY important to level your character over time so that you'll know what you're capable of doing. It's always been that way for spellcasters (to some extent) but even more so now and it applies to all the classes. Also, group tactics and knowing what your buddy can do are really important in this edition and you won't have that to use with one shots.

Zustiur · Oct 7, 2009

As a player, I wish my DM had run several sessions of 'learning the game' style play. The best way I can figure to do that is for each player to build 4 level 3 characters - one of each role. Each session you play a different role, until you've done this for 4 sessions. By then you should have a pretty good handle on how the game fits together, and you can build a character at any level with a far greater understanding of what works and doesn't work in 4E.

I struggled through the entirety of Keep on the Shadowfel with a character that was built around 3E understandings. That character SUCKED. If I built that same character now, with the same concept in mind, I would do so very differently.

So my advice is do not start your campaign from your first session. Let the players get to grips with 4E before you have them make characters that they're going to be stuck with.

bobcat_grad · Oct 7, 2009

Our group did a tour d' 4e.

We played an adventure with level 6-7 characters. Then one with 13-14 characters. And then one with 19-21 characters. We each tried a different class each time, as well.

It gave us an idea of what to expect throughout a character's life and by the end of this tour, we all have a pretty good idea of what works well and what doesn't. We also discovered we didn't overly enjoy really low level characters.

Starting this week, we're getting underway with what I hope will be an extended campaign effort (starting at level 9). But now we all have a good idea of what to expect going forward as far as mechanics and gameplay go.

jcayer · Oct 7, 2009

1. We usually play from 8pm - 1 or 2am, so 5 or 6 hours. Typically, we'll hit 4 encounters. Sometimes only 3, sometimes 5. I usually prepare 5, just to be safe.

2. When we started, myself(DM), and one of the other players did a bunch of encounters are lunch(we worked together). Then on the first game night, I had them travel overland to a cave(the real adventure). During that travel, there were 2-3 encounters. Each one more complicated than the last. I introduced difficult terrain, hazards, etc. They took a long time, but eveyone was attentive, learned a lot, and we've been rolling for over a year now.