Reviewing, Revising, and Finalizing Prehistoric Animals and Dinosaur Ecology

Anyway, I've finished the Prosauropod stats so might as well post them.

I think I'd better put them in a new post rather than insert them in the Sauropoda stats - that post is already long enough!

I may add some flavour text later or tweak the stats later. I decided to give them a single "claws" attack because their arms are short and (probably) not that agile, so it felt appropriate that they could only grab a single foe with both hands as one attack. That, and I wanted to distinguish them more from the dinosaurs with longer arms that have a pair of claw attacks in 3E.

You may also have noticed I put the age data in blue. That was just a result of fooling around with the formatting, but I quite liked the way it stood out in the original layout so left it in. Works better against a white background, though.

EDIT: Hmm, that blue really doesn't work on the Enworld boards, I'll probably change it later.

Prosauropods

Bipedal Prosauropods
Bipedal prosauropods have massive tails which account for roughly half their body length, barrel-like bodies supported on strong hind legs and short but sturdy forearms whose 5-fingered hands are equipped with sturdy claws, with an enlarged claw on their innermost digit (the "thumb"). Their heads are fairly small, on a quite long neck. They have small, serrated teeth that can give quite a nasty bite, but their claws and tails are their primary defence.

A bipedal prosauropods stats could be used to represent a fairly generic bipedal herbivorous dinosaur, such as a Hypsilophodon, although such animals were probably a little faster and did not have as large claws.

Small Prosauropod (Thecodontosaurus)
Late Triassic (225-200 MYA)
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 1d8+2 (6 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+0
Attack: Tail-slap +0 melee (1d6) or claw +0 melee (1d4)
Full Attack: Tail-slap +0 melee (1d6); or claws +0 melee (1d4) and bite –5 melee (1d3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness
Environment: Temperate and warm plains or forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
Challenge Rating: ¼
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2 (Small); 3-6 (Medium); 7-13 HD (Large); 14-21 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

The smallest bipedal prosauropods include the oldest and most primitive examples of their kind, such as Panphagia.

A Small-sized bipedal prosauropod is roughly 5 feet long from nose to tail and weighs around 20-30 pounds.

Little Prosauropod (Unaysaurus)
Late Triassic (225-200 MYA)
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+0
Attack: Tail-slap +0 melee (1d6+1) or claws +0 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Tail-slap +0 melee (1d6+1); or claws +0 melee (1d4+1) and bite –5 melee (1d3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +6, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness
Environment: Temperate and warm plains or forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
Challenge Rating: ¼
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3-6 (Medium); 7-13 HD (Large); 14-21 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

A little bipedal prosauropod roughly 7 feet long from nose to tail and weighing around 50-60 pounds.

Medium Prosauropod (Coloradisaurus?)
Late Triassic (220-210 MYA)
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+9 (22 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+0 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+4
Attack: Tail-slap +4 melee (1d8+3) or claws +5 melee (1d6+2)
Full Attack: Tail-slap +4 melee (1d8+3); or claws +5 melee (1d6+2) and bite –1 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +2
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Focus (claw)
Environment: Temperate and warm plains or forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4-6 (Medium); 7-13 HD (Large); 14-21 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

A Medium-sized bipedal prosauropod is roughly 10 feet long from nose to tail and weighs around 180-250 pounds.

Large Prosauropod (Massospondylus)
Late Triassic to Early Jurassic (210-185 MYA)
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 7d8+28 (59 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +0 Dex, +6 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+13
Attack: Tail-slap +8 melee (2d6+6) or claws +9 melee (1d10+4)
Full Attack: Tail-slap +8 melee (2d6+6); or claws +9 melee (1d10+4) and bite +3 melee (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with tail)
Special Attacks: Trample 2d6+6 [DC17]
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +8
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Weapon Focus (claws)
Environment: Temperate and warm plains or forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 8-13 HD (Large); 14-21 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

A Large-sized bipedal prosauropod is roughly 14 feet long from nose to tail and weighs around 500-700 pounds.

Big Prosauropod (Plateosaurus)
Late Triassic (215-200 MYA)
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 10d8+50 (95 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +0 Dex, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+17
Attack: Tail-slap +12 melee (2d6+9) or claws +13 melee (1d10+6)
Full Attack: Tail-slap +12 melee (2d6+9); or claws +13 melee (1d10+6) and bite +7 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. (15 ft. with tail)
Special Attacks: Trample 2d6+9 [DC21]
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +4
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +10, Spot +9
Feats: Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Weapon Focus (claws)
Environment: Temperate and warm plains or forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 11-13 HD (Large); 14-21 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

The above stats are the largest size bipedal prosauropods commonly reached.

A big bipedal prosauropod is a Large-sized animal roughly 20 feet long from nose to tail and weighs around 1500-2000 pounds.

Huge Prosauropod (Yunnanosaurus)
Early to Middle Jurassic (215-200 MYA)
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 14d8+84 (147 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (-2 size, +0 Dex, +9 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+26
Attack: Tail-slap +16 melee (3d6+12) or claws +17 melee (2d8+8)
Full Attack: Tail-slap +16 melee (3d6+12); or claws +17 melee (2d8+8) and bite +11 melee (1d8+4)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with tail)
Special Attacks: Trample 3d6+12 [DC27]
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +9, Will +5
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +12, Spot +11
Feats: Ability Focus (trample), Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Weapon Focus (claws)
Environment: Temperate and warm plains or forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 15-21 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

This is an exceptional size for a bipedal prosauropod, such as a particularly big Plateosaurus or the largest species of Yunannosaurus. There's a distinct possibility some (or all) such animals were semi-quadrupedal, dropping on their front legs to graze but rearing up on their hind limbs to fight or run.

30 feet, 4000-7000 pounds, max about 40 feet and 6 tons?

Prosauropod stats

These are nice- though I might trim the tail slap ranges down to equal to the Space.

This would give an "effective length" so to speak
(bite reach + space + tail length),

of 25 ft for a Big prosauropod, and 40 ft for a Huge one.

As it currently stands, they appear to have an effective length of 30 ft for the Big one, and 45 ft for the Huge one.

Maybe a bit much?

Remember that just because it is Large (or Huge) doesn't mean its actual body is 10 or 15 ft long- some of its tail will be inside its Space, as will some of its neck.

a 40 ft "effective fighting length" for a Huge prosauropod is still pretty hefty.

So far, on the sauropod stats, the only thing that puzzles me, is:

Cleon said:

To create a long-necked sauropod, simply take a standard sauropod and give it a bite reach equal to its tail reach..

Click to expand...

(because several long-necked sauropods were built more like diplodocids- very long and slender)

and:

Cleon said:

A Brachiosaurus has a sturdy body, with a shorter tail and longer forelegs than other sauropods. This group includes massive species that grow Gargantuan and Colossal size, such as Giraffatitan brancai. Apply the following changes to the base sauropod: +4 Strength, tail reach is twice the bite reach, Weapon Focus is in kick instead of tail.

Click to expand...

because base sauropods already have a tail reach twice the bite reach- and most brachiosaur-types had shorter tails- maybe equal to the bite reach, or, at most, 1.5 times the bite reach.

If we went with 1.5 times the bite reach, Brachiosaurus altithorax, and maybe Giraffatitan brancai, could be Standard Gargantuan Brachiosaurs, and Sauroposeidon could be a Long-necked Gargantuan Brachiosaur (neck reach equal to tail reach- 30 ft, in this case).

Aside from those two things though- the statblocks seem like good approximations.

Splitting off Reach values from the statblocks (my suggestion) might produce more accurate lengths, but it might also be a bit of an overcomplication.

I like the megaraptor stats for Baryonyx- in fact I'd recommend renaming it that, using it as a template for "spinosaurs" and giving the actual Megaraptor its own statblock- with features such as faster speed than the average carnosaur.

hamishspence said:

These are nice- though I might trim the tail slap ranges down to equal to the Space.

This would give an "effective length" so to speak
(bite reach + space + tail length),

of 25 ft for a Big prosauropod, and 40 ft for a Huge one.

As it currently stands, they appear to have an effective length of 30 ft for the Big one, and 45 ft for the Huge one.

Maybe a bit much?

Click to expand...

Yes, but that was deliberate since the Huge prosauropod was meant to be an incredibly large specimen, the Big prosauropod is meant to represent the normal upper limit.

hamishspence said:

(because several long-necked sauropods were built more like diplodocids- very long and slender)

Click to expand...

I was just going to use a Diplodocids stat for the long-necked, very-long tailed slender varieties of Sauropod, even if they might not technically be close kin to Diplodocus.

and:

hamishspence said:

because base sauropods already have a tail reach twice the bite reach- and most brachiosaur-types had shorter tails- maybe equal to the bite reach, or, at most, 1.5 times the bite reach.

Click to expand...

Oops. Actually, I gave them bite = Space (15 ft), tail = twice base Reach (20 ft), but forgot to change the descriptive text. The stats are correct, though.

Ah, so twice the base reach, (not the bite reach), where base reach is assumed to be Short.

If Long Necked could be applied to both standard sauropods and brachiosaurs, it can be used to represent both Mamenchisaurus and Sauroposeidon.

(with Sauroposeidon as an Advanced Gargantuan Brachiosaur with the Long-necked trait added- 30 ft neck, 20 ft body, 30 ft tail)

Brachiosaurus altithorax and Giraffatitan brancai would be ordinary Gargantuan Brachiosaurs.

Applying the Long-necked trait to a diplodocid might be a bit trickier- a Gargantuan one would end up with a 60 ft neck and 60 ft tail- a bit much.

Some long-necked sauropods had necks significantly longer than their tails- Omeisaurus in particular.

Brachiosaurs and bipedal prosauropods

On brachiosauroids- I'm a bit puzzled that Tail Reach range is phrased in terms of normal reach for them, when its phrased in terms of Space for the other two.

This results in a Tail Reach of 10 ft rather than 15 ft at Large size- whereas "Tail reach = 1.5 x Space" would give the same proportions all the way up.

In general though- Reach values are always going to be tricky- since some sauropods are bound to not fit.

Such as 40 ft long 8 ton sauropods like Saltasaurus, or Melanorosaurus.

Given that, for one of these, its body won't fill the 15 ft base, but take up a fairly small part of it in the middle (compared to an Apatosaurus, anyway) a possible set of Space and Reach values for 40 ft sauropods would be: 10 ft Bite Reach, 15 ft Space, 15 ft Tail Slap Reach.

On bipedal prosauropods- since they are bipedal (like theropods) their hind legs will be roughly at the centre of their base- placing them somewhat forward. Thus, reducing the "effective reach" of their tails.

Hence the suggested 10 ft Bite 15 ft Space 15 ft Tail Slap for the Huge one.

Plateosaurus extralargeus can be represented as having a boosted bite reach- 10 ft instead of 5 ft- thus producing a bipedal prosauropod with the same proportions as a Large Theropod with a Long Reach- 30 ft long.

hamishspence said:

On brachiosauroids- I'm a bit puzzled that Tail Reach range is phrased in terms of normal reach for them, when its phrased in terms of Space for the other two.

This results in a Tail Reach of 10 ft rather than 15 ft at Large size- whereas "Tail reach = 1.5 x Space" would give the same proportions all the way up.

Click to expand...

Hmm, that might work better. It would also mean that Medium and Small Brachiosaurs do not have tail reach twice their bite reach (10 ft vs 5 ft) according to the current rule of thumb. Although it may be easier to just say Brachiosaurs smaller than Huge have tail reach = bite reach = space.

I'll have to think about it.

hamishspence said:

In general though- Reach values are always going to be tricky- since some sauropods are bound to not fit.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's one reason I'm reluctant to do too much fiddling with them to exactly fit a particular genus. So long as it's in the right ballpark I feel we're alright.

hamishspence said:

On bipedal prosauropods- since they are bipedal (like theropods) their hind legs will be roughly at the centre of their base- placing them somewhat forward. Thus, reducing the "effective reach" of their tails.

Click to expand...

I tend to visualize the "Space" as the area occupied by the torso (i.e. from nape of neck to back of hip) for the more elongated dinosaurs, so the hindlegs would be a little backset from the centre, so it's not surprising we come out with different results. You're welcome to modify the space/reach for your own use.

Space

I do also- when it comes to quadrupeds (ones at the smaller end won't reach all the way across space, but will still be "centred" with forelegs and hindlegs on either side of the Space.)

But for bipeds- I figure the "centre of mass" should be roughly above the centre of the base- which means, generally, the legs.

The result is, that roughly an equal amount of the animal's length, projects forward and rearward of the centre of mass,

but the torso is all forward of it.

Long-tailed theropods will have a little more of the tail projecting back- but still look "balanced" on a base.

Long-tailed bipedal sauropodomorphs, will be the same.

To sum up- if a T. rex was modelled as standing, with his body held horizontally, and his hind legs right at the edge of the circular base- he will look a bit off.

The same, I think, is true for a bipedal Plateosaurus or Yunnanosaurus- with its body held close to horizontal, but its arms tucked in, well off the ground.

Size Steps

Cleon said:

Hmm, that might work better. It would also mean that Medium and Small Brachiosaurs do not have tail reach twice their bite reach (10 ft vs 5 ft) according to the current rule of thumb. Although it may be easier to just say Brachiosaurs smaller than Huge have tail reach = bite reach = space.

I'll have to think about it.

Click to expand...

Well I've thought about it, and it doesn't look like it's worth changing. The only difference between 200% Short Reach and 150% Long Reach for Huge to Colossal creatures is the Colossal one gets 5 feet more. Don't think I could be bothered changing it, especially as I prefer all the reaches of the Colossal Brach in nice neat 10-foot steps.

I'm going to add a note giving "Lesser Brachs" having bite & tail reaches equal to their Space.

Anyway, while we're on the subject of Sizes, you may have noticed that I have a tendency to add intermediary sized creatures (e.g. a Large animal with Str 16, a 'Big' Large animal with Str 20, and a Huge animal with Str 24), mainly because I don't think the 3E size advancements are granular enough.

I think I'd better formalize the scheme, my current plan is:

Size...........Size (Space).Str+Con
Fine...........Fine..([FONT=&quot]½[/FONT] ft).-12..-2 [RAW Rules say Str -10]
Diminutive.....Dimin.(1 ft).-10..-2
Tiny...........Tiny.(2[FONT=&quot]½[/FONT] ft)..-8..-2
Very Small.....Tiny.(2[FONT=&quot]½[/FONT] ft)..-6..-2
Small..........Small.(5 ft)..-4..-2
Little.........Small.(5 ft)..-2..+0
Medium.........Medium(5 ft)..+0..+0
Big............Medium(5 ft)..+4..+2
Large..........Large(10 ft)..+8..+4
Very Large.....Large(10 ft).+12..+6
Huge...........Huge.(15 ft).+16..+8
Enormous.......Huge.(15 ft).+20.+10
Gargantuan.....Garg.(20 ft).+24.+12
Titanic........Garg.(20 ft).+28.+14 [A 25 ft Space is tempting]
Colossal.......Col..(30 ft).+32.+16
Super Colossal.Col.(40 ft?).+36.+18
EPIC!..........Col+.(50 ft).+40.+20

The sizes above Gargantuan are just for illustration, I doubt any of the remaining prehistoric beasts I stat up for this thread will have a size of Colossal, unless I decide to stat up the more exaggeratedly large estimates of some marine reptiles.

More than Colossal

About the only dinosaur that qualifies is Amphicoelias- and then, only if you're not using "very tight space" but are willing to place a 30 ft body on a 40 ft space.

On marine reptiles- 25 metre Walking with Dinosaurs Liopleurodon could have fitted into normal Colossal (30 ft space, 30 ft bite reach, 20 ft tail slap).

Since that turned out to be a massive overestimate based on guesswork, I doubt any other marine reptile was that big.

Pliosaurus macromerus (18 m) and Hainosaurus (17 m) and Shonisaurus (21 m) are some of the biggest marine reptiles- and they fit better into Gargantuan than Colossal.

A fully grown, 110 ft long, 200+ ton blue whale however, is a better candidate for 40 ft space. Although maybe not 50 ft space.