Reviewing, Revising, and Finalizing Prehistoric Animals and Dinosaur Ecology

Cleon

Legend
I'd noticed a curious omission from the index of prehistoric beasties. It doesn't have an entry for Deinocheirus.

That seems rather odd, since it's pretty widely known, despite their being very little actually known about the dinosaur.

Still, it inspired me to stat up a Deinocheirus, as well as doing my own take on the Ornithomimosaurs it is presumed to be related to...
 

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Cleon

Legend
Ornithomimosaurs

Ornithomimosaurs
Ornithomimosaurs are a group of a bipedal dinosaurs with long, slender arms with three clawed fingers, a small head on a pretty long neck and a long counterbalancing tail. They are one of the swiftest of dinosaurs, running at least as fast as a horse on their powerful hind limbs.

There is no firm scientific agreement on what they ate, but most likely they were herbivores or omnivores. Their head is mostly a long, narrow straight-edged beak. Some primitive forms had teeth, but the more advanced Ornithomimosaurs were toothless. Ornithomimosaurs have muscular gizzards filled with stones that allow them to efficiently grind up tough food.

For the sake of this conversion I'm assuming they are omnivores.

Ornithomimosaurs were mostly fairly uniform in size, with species ranging from 10 to 20 feet in adult length, with about 13 feet being typical. However, there is one dinosaur, Deinocheirus mirificus which may be a giant relative of the Ornithomimosauria. Since only a pair of 8-foot long arms and a little of the ribs and backbone of Deinocheirus has been discovered, any conversion will perforce be extremely speculative. I've decided to make Deinocheirus a giant omnivore that mainly ate vegetable matter and insects, but would happily eat smaller vertebrates if they fell into its clutches. Since it could have weighed 10 tons, "smaller" could easily accommodate adventurers, which seemed appropriate for a "D&D" version of this animal.


Ornithomimus
Late Cretaceous (85-65 MYA)
Other Ornithomimosaurs Early-Late Cretaceous (250-230 MYA)
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+9 (22 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+10
Attack: kick +5 melee (2d6+6)
Full Attack: kick +5 melee (2d6+6); or 2 claws +5 melee (1d4+2) and bite +0 melee (1d3+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Swallow whole, trample 2d6+6 [DC15]
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Hide +2* [+6 in undergrowth], Jump +18, Listen +6, Spot +6, Survival +3
Feats: Endurance, Run
Environment: Warm or temperate plains and forests
Organization: Solitary; flight (2-12) or flock (5-50)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment:

Ornithomimus is a typical example of the Ornithomimosauria. They prefer to live in flocks in fairly open ground, so they have many eyes to watch for danger and clear paths to escape. These dinosaurs are omnivores; they mostly eat fruit, nuts and leaves, supplemented with whatever diminutive animals they can catch.

A typical Ornithomimus is 12-15 feet long and weighs about 300 pounds.

Combat
A threatened Ornithomimus's first instinct is flight, although they may fight if cornered or grappled. An Ornithomimus generally defends itself with a powerful kick or trampling attack while trying to clear its path to escape, but they can also fight with slashing foreclaws and a darting beak.

Usually, the only danger Ornithomimus poses to an adventuring party is that they may be trampled underfoot if the dinosaurs panic and stampede. An Ornithomimus would only attack characters as food if they're pixie-sized. They have been known to swallow familiars, however.

Swallow Whole (Ex): An Ornithomimus can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to Diminutive size by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 1d6+6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2 points of acid damage per round from the Ornithomimus's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 10 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. An Ornithomimus's gizzard can hold 8 Diminutive or 32 Fine opponents.

Skills
An Ornithomimus has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks and a +2 racial bonus on Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks. *Its racial bonus on Hide checks increases to +8 in areas of undergrowth.

Archaeornithomimus (Lesser Ornithomimosaur)
Late Cretaceous (85-65 MYA)
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: kick +4 melee (1d8+1)
Full Attack: kick +4 melee (1d8+1); or 2 claws +4 melee (1d3) and bite –1 melee (1d2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trample 1d8+1 [DC12]
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Hide +6* [+10 in undergrowth], Jump +15, Listen +5, Spot +6, Survival +3
Feats: Run, Weapon Finesse(B)
Environment: Warm or temperate plains and forests
Organization: Solitary; flight (2-12) or flock (5-50)
Challenge Rating: ½
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment:

The above represents any of the smaller varieties of Ornithomimosaur, ranging from 7 to 12 feet long. The same stats can be used for such primitive Ornithomimids as Pelecanimimus polyodon and Harpymimus oklandnikovi, both of which species are unusual in possessing small but sharp teeth.

A typical Archaeornithomimus is about 10 feet between beak and tail tips and weighs 100-140 pounds.

Gallimimus (Greater Ornithomimosaur)
Late Cretaceous (70-65 MYA)
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 5d8+20 (42 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+13
Attack: kick +8 melee (2d6+9)
Full Attack: kick +8 melee (2d6+9); or 2 claws +8 melee (1d4+3) and bite +3 melee (1d3+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Swallow whole, trample 2d6+9 [DC18]
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, swallow whole [1d6+9, 10 hp, AC12]
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Hide +2* [+6 in undergrowth], Jump +20, Listen +7, Spot +7, Survival +3
Feats: Endurance, Run
Environment: Warm or temperate plains and forests
Organization: Solitary; flight (2-12) or flock (5-50)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 6 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment:

Gallimimus is the largest known genus of Ornithomimid.

A typical Gallimimus grows up to 20 feet long and 800-1000 pounds weight.

Combat
(See above for tactics).

Swallow Whole (Ex): A Gallimimus can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to Diminutive size by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 1d6+9 points of bludgeoning damage and 2 points of acid damage per round from the Gallimimus's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 10 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Gallimimus's gizzard can hold 4 Tiny, 16 Diminutive or 64 Fine opponents.

Skills
A Gallimimus has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks and a +2 racial bonus on Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks. *Its racial bonus on Hide checks increases to +8 in areas of undergrowth.

Deinocheirus
Late Cretaceous (75-65 MYA)
Gargantuan Animal
Hit Dice: 15d8+105 (172 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (-4 size, +2 Dex, +10 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+33
Attack: Claw +18 melee (1d10+10) or bite +17 melee (1d8+5) or kick +17 melee (4d6+15)
Full Attack: 2 claws +18 melee (1d10+10) and bite +15 melee (1d8+5); or kick +17 melee (4d6+15)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Swallow whole, trample 4d6+15 [3d6+15, 25 hp, DC27]
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +11, Will +6
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 15, Con 25, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Hide +4* [+8 in undergrowth], Jump +24, Listen +9, Spot +9, Survival +3
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Run, Weapon Focus (claw), Multiattack, Snatch
Environment: Warm or temperate plains and forests
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 16-24 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment:

Stalking into sight is an bizarre looking animal resembling an enormous, scaly ostrich more than three times as tall as a man, and well over forty feet in length once its great lizard-like tail is included. Instead of an ostrich's wings, it has arms as long as an ogre is tall, with foot-long talons on the three fingers of each hand. The head is two or three feet long, with a sharp-edged beak and an crown of ornamental plumes.

A Deinocheirus looks like a Ornithomimus of monstrous size and strength, which is basically what it is. They are remarkably fleet-footed despite their gigantic size.

These animals have extremely powerful gizzards and are most catholic in their diet, being willing to swallow anything that looks or smells edible. Their diet is mostly vegetation, with a supplement of much smaller animals and carrion; they have a particular fondness for breaking open termite mounds with their claws and licking up the insects. These dinosaurs are not active hunters, but will happily snatch up and eat any bite-sized creatures foolish enough to come within a few steps of them. Since these dinosaurs are several times larger than an average elephant, "bite sized" can include humans. On rare occasions they will kill and eat bigger animals, such large prey are usually hapless herbivores careless enough to annoy the Deinocheirus and too slow about getting out of its way, or a carnivorous dinosaur that mistook the "Terrible Hand" for an easy meal.

A typical Deinocheirus is about 50 feet long and weighs up to 20000 pounds.

Combat
Deinocheirus are far more pugnacious than their smaller Ornithomimosaur cousins. While they usually flee attackers whose size rivals theirs, they are not adverse to attacking threats with their terrible foreclaws and a bite. They can also unleash a tremendous kick, usually as a precursor to a rapid departure.

Most Deinocheirus will ignore Medium or Small sized humanoids unless they provoke it by injuring the beast or intruding into its personal space (a radius of about 60-120 feet around the animal). Some of these dinosaurs have learned to attack humanoids, either out of a taste for their flesh or because they have been injured by them, and will go out of their way to stalk, kill and eat them. Such are fearsome opponents, they usually charge and crush as many opponents as they can with their Trample attack, then try to use their Snatch feat to seize its humanoid opponents in their claws and beak and swallow them.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A Deinocheirus can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to three sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 3d6+15 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the Deinocheirus's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Deinocheirus's gizzard can hold 4 Medium, 16 Small, 64 Tiny or 256 Diminutive or Fine opponents.

Skills
An Deinocheirus has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks and a +2 racial bonus on Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks. *Its racial bonus on Hide checks increases to +8 in areas of undergrowth.
 

hamishspence

Adventurer
Deltadromeus

This is possibly the largest ceratosaur.

Deltadromeus
Late Cretaceous (95 MYA)
Huge animal
Hit Dice: 16d8+75 (147 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+27
Attack: Bite +17 melee (4d8+10 or Powerful Charge 4d8+10 plus 3d6)
Full Attack: Bite +17 melee (4d8+10)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Rend 2d8+10, Powerful Charge
Special Qualities: Low light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +12, Will +7
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +10, Move Silently +8, Spot +11
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Run, Toughness, Improved Toughness, Powerful Charge
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3-8)
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 17-20 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

Measuring up to 44 feet from nose to tail, and weighing up to 7000 pounds in weight, Deltadromeus walks on two long, slender, but strong legs, and is an extremely swift runner for its size.

COMBAT

Deltadromeus tries to catch prey by surprise, then relies on its speed and its powerful jaws to make the kill. When hunting in a pack, one usually makes its presence known, causing prey to bolt into the waiting jaws of its fellows.

Rend (Ex): When Deltadromeus wins a grapple check after a successful bite attack, it establishes a hold, latching onto the opponent's body and shaking it to tear the flesh. This attack automatically deals 2d8+10 points of damage.
 
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xidoraven

Explorer
I'm afraid I must not have subscribed to this page, because I have been checking my subscription list for days now with no activity, and then I come here and realize that I missed a whole load of postings!

I will review and respond as I can soon enough. :p ;)
-will
---
Update: I love Deinocheirus - I included it in my own list of needed creatures, I believe - or else I decided halfway through my research that it was a therizinosaur and ruled it out against Therizinosaurus - which is incorrect, after reading around a little more.

I like the idea of Deinocheirus as a ant-mound-destroying ornithomimosaur with omnivorous traits and an herbivorous lean.

I have never heard of Deltadromeus, however it looks in many ways similar to other carnosaurs - what is the largest "Super Predator" size and HD? Thanks for joining in! I appreciate all the help we can get. Make sure I know which creatures to begin crossing off our list for being reviewed and revised, including all applicable stats such as familiars, companions, mounts, training/rearing, etc. I love your format, Cleon - the MYA and era entries are excellent.

I would like to do away with the word 'Nova' now that I get what you were hinting at, and simply call them homebrew or else some other term to show that they have been created (or else revised from a half-written or poorly written previous version). Redux is a good way of pointing out that we know it was published once and we are re-writing it in our own balancing system. I like that term - I don't see that the other one is necessary. We don't really have to call them anything at all other than their species/family, or variations on another more common named animal (such as a Gigantosaurus being similar to a Tyrranosaurus is most ways possible); variations from popular named animals are fine, and might deserve their own formatting layout (such as with minimal changes noted) or some other change to show their similarity to another race. I am not trying to push too hard on this one - I just don't think we need a bunch of extra names for these critters when they are all animals, and the reader will never need to know how it is that we composed them based on previous versions, etc. If the creature they are looking at is different from their SRD versions, I think it deserves the 'Redux' label - everything else is seemingly trivial with naming conventions; it's definitely more important to think about how they will be organized, not only here, but in a series of pages within a publication as well.

I am thinking either by category (dino/prim, and categories of those) with similar creatures listed as you have them here (like variations on a base creature), or else alphabetically (with no type/category separations). In any case, fictional creatures based on these creatures (Giant, Dire, etc.) will need to be placed in another category no matter what, I fear - it may work well here on the web forums, but in print it needs to be as indexed as possible. Small versions (children, adolescents variations) might reside with the original creature post without confusion quite well.

I promise I will be keeping better track of this thread from now on - I AM SUBSCRIBED now. :p ;)
 
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hamishspence

Adventurer
Deltadromeus

This is where it is described- I gave it fairly low hit dice because it s lighter than T-rex:

Deltadromeus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The biggest version of Giganotosaurus:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thr...inosaur_Menagerie?post_id=332181778#332181778

Personally though, I would say some of the bigger ones ought to be trimmed down to size.

Going by Wikipedia, the "normal" Giganotosaurus is 41 ft long, and the largest known specimen (based on a single fragment of bone) is 8% larger.

For T. rex- Sue- the largest mounted one- is at most 43 ft long (I have seen sizes for Sue ranging from 42 ft, to 42.8 ft, to 43 ft.)
The biggest T. rex skull is 6.5% longer than Sue's.

Carcharodontosaurus is probably slightly smaller than Giganotosaurus- it's skull is quite a bit shorter.

To sum up- most of the big dinosaurs (excepting Spinosaurus) seem to max out at around 45 ft long.

If we assume a dinoaur should not extend outside its reach in both directions, but can be just that long, and assume that Large and Huge biped dinosaurs can come in Short and Long reach versions:

(reasonable- the Allosaurus in MM2, updated to 3.5, is given a 15 ft space 15 ft reach)

:then, Huge (long reach) is probably the best size for most of the "super-predators"

For the borderline between Large (long reach) and Huge (short reach) I tend to use weight and leg length as a guideline- if the dino is around 2 tonnes- it should be Huge, even if it is a little on the short side (Gigantoraptor)

but if it is 1 tonne or less, and if it has relatively short legs, it should be Large.
 
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hamishspence

Adventurer
A list of major clades- biggest members of each

This is a list of the major theropod clades- I may have left off a few of the clades of smallest theropods:

Coelophysoidea-
Gojirasaurus

Ceratosauria-
Deltadromeus
Ceratosauridae- Ceratosaurus
Abelisauridae- Rajasaurus
Carnotaurini- Carnotaurus

Dilophosauridae-
Dilophosaurus

Tetanurae:
Megalosauroidea
Megalosauridae- Torvosaurus
Spinosauridae- Spinosaurus

Carnosauria
Sinraptoridae- Yangchuanosaurus magnus
Allosauridae- Allosaurus amplexus
Carcharodontosauria
Giganotosaurinae- Giganotosaurus
Neovenatoridae-
Chilantaisaurus
Megaraptora- Aerosteon

Coelurosauria
Tyrannosauroidea- Tyrannosaurus
Compsognathidae- Sinocalliopteryx
Ornithomimosauria- Deinocheirus
Maniraptora
Oviraptoridae- Gigantoraptor
Therizinosauridae- Therizinosaurus
Dromaeosauridae- Utahraptor
Troodontidae- Troodon

Most of these have already been statted out by somebody.
 

Cleon

Legend
Welcome aboard hamishspence!

I hope you won't mind if I make a few constructive criticisms of your take on Deltadromeus.

Str 25 and Con 18 seem a bit low for a Huge animal. I'd suggest bumping them up to around Str 28 and Con 21. I'm guessing you picked these numbers by knocking a few points off the SRD Tyrannosaurus's Str and Con, but that dinosaur is woefully weedy for its size (it's Strength is little more than a grizzly bear's!), which is why I did a "Redux" version of Tyrannosaurus the previous page with Str 34.

It's missing a feat. A 15-17HD animal should have six feats, not five.

Speaking of feats, Deltadromeus has Improved Toughness and Powerful Charge among its feats, neither of which are in the SRD. I'd prefer to stick to only SRD feats and have any additional abilities as Special Attacks, since people (myself included!) may not have a source for a novel feat or, worse, there may be several different versions of a feat with the same name and I don't know which one you mean.

For example, the Netbook of Feats has a take on Improved Toughness, but it requires Toughness as a prerequisite, and as this Deltadromeus doesn't have Toughness I'm guessing it isn't that version of Imp. Toughness.

Also, isn't Powerful Charge an extraordinary special attack, not a feat? Why else is it listed in the Special Attack line?

Oh, and if it likes to grapple opponents with its bite and then Rend them, shouldn't it have the Improved Grab special attack too?
 

Cleon

Legend
I'm afraid I must not have subscribed to this page, because I have been checking my subscription list for days now with no activity, and then I come here and realize that I missed a whole load of postings!

Well better late than never.:)

Update: I love Deinocheirus - I included it in my own list of needed creatures, I believe - or else I decided halfway through my research that it was a therizinosaur and ruled it out against Therizinosaurus - which is incorrect, after reading around a little more.

Have you posted this list of needed creatures somewhere, I haven't seen it? If I see any tempting beasties on it I may well be tempted to stat them up.

I have never heard of Deltadromeus, however it looks in many ways similar to other carnosaurs - what is the largest "Super Predator" size and HD? Thanks for joining in! I appreciate all the help we can get. Make sure I know which creatures to begin crossing off our list for being reviewed and revised, including all applicable stats such as familiars, companions, mounts, training/rearing, etc. I love your format, Cleon - the MYA and era entries are excellent.

As far as oversized theropods go, I'd guess the uppermost limit is probably somewhere around 45 feet long and 10-12 tons.* Probably (possibly?) slightly longer for Spinosaurus, but the remains of that are rather fragmentary (not to mention the type specimen was destroyed during WW2), so it's hard to be sure of much about it. It's also worth bearing in mind we've only got a very small sample. The largest Tyrannosaurus we've found is very unlikely to be the largest that ever lived.

*EDIT: I'm talking Imperial tons or metric tonnes here (they're pretty close in weigh), i.e. 10000-12000kg or 22400-26880 pounds, equaling 11.2-13.44 "short" tons of 2000 lbs.

I would like to do away with the word 'Nova' now that I get what you were hinting at, and simply call them homebrew or else some other term to show that they have been created (or else revised from a half-written or poorly written previous version). Redux is a good way of pointing out that we know it was published once and we are re-writing it in our own balancing system. I like that term - I don't see that the other one is necessary.

I've already dropped the "Nova". I only had it in the first batch of creatures, to distinguish between the SRD "dinosaurs" and the non-SRD creatures in that group.
 
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Cleon

Legend
If we assume a dinoaur should not extend outside its reach in both directions, but can be just that long, and assume that Large and Huge biped dinosaurs can come in Short and Long reach versions:

(reasonable- the Allosaurus in MM2, updated to 3.5, is given a 15 ft space 15 ft reach)

That's more or less the rule of thumb I used, except I allowed dinosaurs with exceptionally long necks & tails (e.g. most sauropods) to exceed that limit.

I have doubt about giving theropods a Tall creature's extra reach though, not many of them had particularly long arms or necks.

I disagree with the MM2's take on Allosaurus though. An average specimen of Allosaurus fragilis probably wasn't much over 25 feet long and 1000 kilos, making it a 15'/15' creature is too big, it's more like the upper end of Large-sized, which is what I used in my version of it. Although Allosaurus should advance to Huge size, since there's evidence they may have reached ~32-40 feet in length, or had close relatives that reached that size.

EDIT: I also have nothing against making a particularly large theropod Gargantuan sized, even though it may fall short of the desired weight (e.g. 45' and 25000 pounds or so, instead of the 32000+ pounds a Gargantuan creature should have). The SRD Tyrannosaurus goes up to Gargantuan, and I see nothing wrong with a little exaggeration in a fantasy game like D&D.
 
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Cleon

Legend
Update: I love Deinocheirus - I included it in my own list of needed creatures, I believe - or else I decided halfway through my research that it was a therizinosaur and ruled it out against Therizinosaurus - which is incorrect, after reading around a little more.

I like the idea of Deinocheirus as a ant-mound-destroying ornithomimosaur with omnivorous traits and an herbivorous lean.

Ta, it's probably a highly inaccurate interpretation of Deinocheirus but I was aiming for something interesting rather than realistic. (For example, I doubt it had a head big enough for a jaw-gape sufficient for swallowing something human-sized). It's also doubtful something that big would be suited for anteating, but I liked the idea.

Certainly, their were an awful lot of termites back in the Cretaceous, so there could have been something that liked to eat them.
 

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