Wizard Implement Expertise

Nichwee · Oct 22, 2009

Anyone want to have a go at telling me why this has requirements of 3 different stats: Int 21, Wis 15, Dex 15?

If it was Int 21, Wis or Dex 17 I would understand (or even more if it was the Stat Associated To Your Implement Mastery at 17).

I just wonder why WotC felt a wizard needed Wis AND Dex to crit better, when nothing about them needs Wis or Dex, except 1 implement mastery each (but by that logic why not need Can and Cha too, especially as Con is used for 2 Implement Masteries)?

I get they wanted more than the primary stat involved but I would have used Int 21, SATYIM 17 so it uses the priamry and secondary stats of the player's wizard.

Opinions?

DracoSuave · Oct 22, 2009

Nichwee said:
Anyone want to have a go at telling me why this has requirements of 3 different stats: Int 21, Wis 15, Dex 15?

If it was Int 21, Wis or Dex 17 I would understand (or even more if it was the Stat Associated To Your Implement Mastery at 17).

I just wonder why WotC felt a wizard needed Wis AND Dex to crit better, when nothing about them needs Wis or Dex, except 1 implement mastery each (but by that logic why not need Can and Cha too, especially as Con is used for 2 Implement Masteries)?

I get they wanted more than the primary stat involved but I would have used Int 21, SATYIM 17 so it uses the priamry and secondary stats of the player's wizard.

Opinions?

Because it follows the same pattern as the other Implement Master feats for the other Arcane classes. Major stat at 21, and two other stats at 15 each. Wizards with -multiple- possible secondaries tho would get rediculous: 'Int 21, All other stats but Strength 15' is a lot of rediculous for requirements.

Nichwee · Oct 22, 2009

Actually Warlocks get Cha 17, Con 17 - I assume as they have two primary stats - and Swordmage doesn't seem to get a crit increase at Epic at all. So saying because all Arcane work that way is obviously not right.

And I was suggesting more like the Warlock of two stats, the second being dependent on Implement Mastery chosen (and suggesting that is be upped in requirement by 2 to compensate for not needing a tertiary stat). Wizards don't have normal secondary stats, as no power works off any stat but Int (even for effects) accept the fact that your Implement Mastery adds 1 other stat to your build.
This choice of stat prerequisites seems to screw Staff or Tome Wizards and encourage only Wand and Orb (and considering the possible munchkinness of Ord Wizard I'm surprised they want to up its popularity).

Similar to how multiclassing into Ranger can be Str or Dex, as it accepts that the stat needed for Ranger-ness depends what style of Ranger you were multiclassing into.

DracoSuave · Oct 23, 2009

Staff wizards are never screwed. They're the -least- in need of any sort of love.

Also Bludgeoning Mastery already takes care of that.

Nichwee · Oct 26, 2009

DracoSuave said:
Staff wizards are never screwed. They're the -least- in need of any sort of love.

Also Bludgeoning Mastery already takes care of that.

Ok so Tome Wizards are screwed. Or Orb Of Deception Wizards.

And Bludgeoning Mastery? Str 19, Con 19 on a Wizard? And only works on melee weapon attacks not implement attacks.

This feat is for crit-ing with an implement - I figured it should use stats relevent to your implement. Not Stats randomly picked as Secondary and Tertiary for Wizards - as they have no true Sec and Tert stats from a powers/effects point of view.

AbdulAlhazred · Oct 26, 2009

Wizards certainly have secondary stats just as much as many other classes do. Basically ALL single primary stat classes use the primary for all attack rolls. Secondary stats on these classes are always riders and wizards have all kinds of different riders on their powers. Thunderwave has a WIS rider just as a simple example. Given the power of the wizard's implement mastery features their use of secondary stats is also fairly non-trivial. No orbizard would be worth squat without putting points in WIS for example. The very fact that you mention the CON dependency of summoning wizards also says something doesn't it? Wizards are a BIT of a unique class design in that they seem to be designed not to rely too heavily on one single secondary stat or at least you have more of an option to spread your points around or pile them up in one place depending on how much you want to specialize.

I can see the point with the expertise feat. It could have been broken up into a series of feats for each implement with different requirements, etc. As a house rule that seems like a decent way to go. Just generally though I like the concept of ability score requirements on feats. It really makes optimization a lot more of a process of trading off one thing for another. "Do I just keep boosting my INT sky high or do I toss a point or two into this secondary stat so I can take a feat that puts me at about the same power level?" You end up with 2 equally good but different sets of choices. Personally I think they've tended to drop the ball with later books where they seem to be mostly abandoning the whole idea. Same thing with using typed bonuses. I think more things should have been typed bonuses so that super specializing in one area is possible but it requires taking some kind of top tier feat at some point that has difficult prereqs instead of being able to pile on a near infinite series of smaller and easier to get bonuses. Plus it would let high level PCs free up a feat slot or two for better customization or filling in a weak spot or two.

Nichwee · Oct 26, 2009

I agree stats should be needed on the feat - I just felt the stats should be ones that match what you need to be good with the implement - so a Wis implement (Orb of Imposition) should need Wis, a Con implement (Staff/Tome) should need Con. And all should need Int as that is the basic stat of a wizard power.

I said Wizards have no secondary stat as I missed Thunderwave's effect being Wis, and don't remember any other Wizard power using a stat other than Int* - except for Implement Mastery. Thus a Wiz has a Primary Stat (Int) and a choice of Secondary Stat (Wiz,Con,Cha,Dex) by implement mastery - hence what makes Dex and Wis the Secondary Stats if you are a Tome Wizard? Nothing (Unless you take Thunderwave - but that still doesn't explain Dex).

So I was basically making this thread as a "So I'd houserule to change WIE to be Int 21 and "Stat Of Implement Mastery" 19. Any obvious issues/reasons I have missed why this would be out of order?".

* Found 4 which have a rider with Wis, 2 with Cha, 5 with Con, None for Dex, Str. So the idea of Dex as a Secondary Stat is WoAcc only. Plus I was still thinking mainly PHB when I said no secondary stat, where Wis is used a small amount and the others aren't used at all.

kerbarian · Oct 26, 2009

One thing I was wondeirng about Wizard Implement Expertise: You get the crit benefit "When you wield a wizard implement while using an arcane power". What exactly is a "wizard implement"? e.g. if you take Arcane Implement Proficiency for rod or heavy blade or something, does that become a wizard implement? Or does Wizard Implement Expertise only work with orbs, wands, staffs, and tomes?

Nichwee · Oct 26, 2009

I just assumed that "wizard implement" was just an odd way of saying "an implement your wizard is proficient in the use of with his wizard powers".

Not sure if you can be proficient with an implement for non-wizard stuff but not for wizard stuff.

Does a Swordmage/Wizard hybrid gain implement proficiency with Heavy Blade for wizard powers as standard (not done much looking at Hybrids yet) or would his Swordmage powers need a Heavy/Light Blade and his wizard ones need a Staff/Tome/Orb/Wand?
If the latter is true it would stop this feat working with his Heavy/Light Blade unless he spent the feat to get his Wizard half proficient with H/LBs too.

Nifft · Oct 26, 2009

DracoSuave said:
Staff wizards are never screwed. They're the -least- in need of any sort of love.

Also Bludgeoning Mastery already takes care of that.

Did you mean to say Orb Wizards? They're the ones who make Wizardry look broken.

"Also Bludgeoning Mastery" -- uh, your Wizard is gonna have a 19 Str and a 19 Con? Really? I can see the 19 Con, but why are you putting points in Str?

And even if you did, you're plan is to make a lot of melee attacks with your staff?

Oh well, -- N