D&D 4E Running 4E combats quickly

Rechan · Nov 30, 2009

Could you give a link to how you handle mini-less combat, Merric?

Herobizkit · Dec 2, 2009

I have yet to play 4e, but it's my understanding that the 4e combat rules were written explicity for use with minis and battlemats. What's the point, for example, of being able to "shift 1 square" if there are no squares to shift to? To me, it adds a level of aggravation similar to 3.x's Sneak Attack - in a mini-less combat, the DM basically decides if you're flanking or not and the player will obviously announce he's getting into flanking position every time. It also kinda defeats the purpose of a Warlord altogether, doesn't it?

MerricB · Dec 2, 2009

Herobizkit said:
I have yet to play 4e, but it's my understanding that the 4e combat rules were written explicity for use with minis and battlemats. What's the point, for example, of being able to "shift 1 square" if there are no squares to shift to? To me, it adds a level of aggravation similar to 3.x's Sneak Attack - in a mini-less combat, the DM basically decides if you're flanking or not and the player will obviously announce he's getting into flanking position every time. It also kinda defeats the purpose of a Warlord altogether, doesn't it?

In all editions of D&D, playing without miniatures leads to that "DM, May I?" problem. This is especially true when you take spells into account. Lightning bolts and fireballs in AD&D are a prime example of that - especially when they bounce off walls or expand to fill available space! If you weren't using exact positioning on a map, then you had a problem.

For myself, I have a very good idea of the actual effects of shifting and manoeuvring through a lot of play on the battlemat. As general rules of thumb:

* A character may shift (5') to move out of melee.
* A character may shift to move out of flanking; this will then require both opponents to shift to move back into flanking, or one of them to actually move.
* Two adjacent characters: one can move into flanking, or both can shift into flanking. (Or one can shift twice).
* Two adjacent characters and two adjacent opponents: flanking isn't easy - can be moved into but provokes AoOs.

From there, other adjudications can be made.

Cheers!

MerricB · Dec 2, 2009

Rechan said:
Could you give a link to how you handle mini-less combat, Merric?

More here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...-towards-no-minis-d-d-4th-edition-combat.html

I really need to set it all down a bit more formally for people's enlightenment, though!

Cheers!

cnath.rm · Dec 2, 2009

Totally loving the thread and the advice.

If I can toss in my 0.02 I had a DM who found a gig that seemed to work for him, and which worked well for me also.

You have each monsters stats on a sheet or card, and the same for each pc. You write init on each one, put them in order, and adjust the order as needed. When it's the monsters turn, you have the stats right in front of you ready to go, and if you use sheets of paper or make new ones each time you can just mark down damage etc on the sheets.

Other games where we use Maptools we use it's Initiative Tracker which helps you to easily see where you are in the order so you can get ready.

EP · Dec 2, 2009

MerricB said:
KEEP ON TARGET: When it's a player's turn, they should be able to tell the DM what they're doing almost instantly. It's likely to have been 5 minutes since their last turn in many occasions, so they should have some idea. My players occasionally pre-roll their attacks when they know what they'll be doing on their turn, and that helps as well.

It's always surprised me for years how some players never have a clue what they'll do once their turn starts. Like standing in line at McDonalds to have the person in front of you not have a clue what they want. Even deciding if they want Subway instead.

Acting quickly and decisively suits combat perfectly too. It simulates the rush of battle - you might not take the best action but you'll be acting. I used to have an hourglass with one party that was notoriously slow on their turns.

Good suggestions all around.

Rechan · Dec 2, 2009

MerricB said:
I really need to set it all down a bit more formally for people's enlightenment, though!

Cheers!

Use your sig dude.

Also, thanks.

S'mon · Dec 2, 2009

I have 6 players and I use minis, or counters etc on the battleboard. I run fast 4e combats. The secret for me is to use the Ars Ludi initiative method - one roll for the monsters, PCs roll to beat it, those who beat it go first, then the monsters, then all the PCs go round-the-table, then monsters-PCs-monsters until fight ends. Tracking init has always been a huge time killer and this has made 3e & 4e fights go much much faster.

Edit: I find telling the players the target number they need to hit helps a lot, too.

Re miniatures - fumbling around to get the right minis kills time. Bette just to use a good-enough mini or a blank counter. Last Saturday my PCs fought: 3 d6s (Geonids), 15 cardboard squares (Centaurs) and 2 human minis (Medusae).

Dausuul · Dec 2, 2009

S'mon said:
I have 6 players and I use minis, or counters etc on the battleboard. I run fast 4e combats. The secret for me is to use the Ars Ludi initiative method - one roll for the monsters, PCs roll to beat it, those who beat it go first, then the monsters, then all the PCs go round-the-table, then monsters-PCs-monsters until fight ends. Tracking init has always been a huge time killer and this has made 3e & 4e fights go much much faster.

That's brilliant. I'm totally yoinking that.