Feat: Echoes of Thunder

Baumi · Nov 19, 2009

Just a short Question about the Feat Echoes of Thunder: Does the original Attack also get the damage bonus (since you damage AFTER the hit)?

For easier Referencing:
Echoes of Thunder

Heroic Tier
Benefit: When you hit with any thunder attack power, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls until the end of your next turn. The bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level.

CapnZapp · Nov 19, 2009

The same question applies to Lasting Frost - do the initial cold attack enjoy the vulnerability conferred?

At least with Arcane Frost, the language is clear. (And FWIW, I'm leaning towards saying "no" to all similar cases - "no, the initial attack only sets up things for subsequent ones, but cannot take advantage of its own effects".

Baumi · Nov 19, 2009

Thanks for the answer, but I don't understand how Lasting Frost is any clearer?

CapnZapp · Nov 20, 2009

Sorry, I didn't provide an answer (except to offer my personal thoughts) - I merely appended another case that should benefit when you do get an official answer.

spayne · Nov 20, 2009

You get the damage bonus on the triggering attack. Look here.

ricardo440 · Nov 20, 2009

So does that also apply to lasting frost then?

The target gains vulnerability before the damage roll of the triggering attack?

That seems very very good rather than just pretty good.

Baumi · Nov 20, 2009

Wow if the CS Answer is correct than the feat is far stronger than i believed (i play an invoker with mainly thunder powers).

CapnZapp · Nov 22, 2009

Fortunately, CS replies are very variable in quality and sometimes outright wrong, so we don't have to take them into account.

It's like with the Character Builder. If something works or doesn't work in the CB, it can mean 1) that is the rule, or 2) there is an error.

The bottom line: Only the rulebooks (and errata) is RAW.

AFAIK, this particular question is unclear/undefined by RAW at this moment.

Baumi · Nov 23, 2009

I will just ask my GM how he will interpret it, but in fact all I want is a damage add-on for my thunder powers and since I hate conditional things that I have to remember (getting a bonus for a round), so I will ask him if i can just convert it to a simple +2 bonus for thunder attack with no lasting effect...

LightPhoenix · Nov 23, 2009

CapnZapp said:
AFAIK, this particular question is unclear/undefined by RAW at this moment.

Regarding Echoes of Thunder, I disagree. RAW is very clear here - damage comes after a hit, so it does indeed add damage to the power used.

The ambiguity is in RAI versus RAW. The RAI clearly seems to be that you gain the bonus on subsequent attacks. To bring it in line with RAI, the feat should probably be re-worded to only give the bonus if you deal damage with a thunder power. Alternatively, a provision for subsequent attacks could be used.