Converting Oriental Adventures creatures

Whoa, somehow I had forgotten about that extra attack from Improved Trip. Frankly, we could do this as a combo of trip plus bull rush or something, but I think it might be easiest mechanically just to use Imp. Trip as a bonus feat. What do you think? EDIT: it's not quite mechanically the same as the original but is probably about equally powerful.

freyar said:

Whoa, somehow I had forgotten about that extra attack from Improved Trip. Frankly, we could do this as a combo of trip plus bull rush or something, but I think it might be easiest mechanically just to use Imp. Trip as a bonus feat. What do you think? EDIT: it's not quite mechanically the same as the original but is probably about equally powerful.

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I was kind of expecting the Shadow Walker to get Improved Trip as one of its regular feats regardless, since it's a good fit to the Combat Expertise feat tree. I was thinking of giving it the Stunning Fist to represent the original's Stun martial manoeuver.

However, for the Hurl ability I'm more inclined to make it a special attack, like so:

Hurl (Ex): The Shadow Walker can hurl an opponent to the ground with a successful grappling check. The target takes 2d6+4 [?] damage and ends up prone on the ground in a 5 ft. square adjacent to the Shadow Walker, but is no longer being grappled. If the Shadow Walker loses the opposed grapple check, it can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. The Shadow Walker can Grab an opponent with a successful melee attack and then immediately attempt to Hurl the target with an opposed grappling check.


Dang it, that reminds me. We gave the Ninja Spirit Shadow we're basing this on a 3rd level monk's AC bonus, unarmed strike and flurry of blows abilities. We need to do something similar with the Shadow Walker. I suggest giving it 5th or 6th level ability. It considered adding the Fast Movement ability, since the Shadow Walker has a higher speed than a normal unarmored human (15" vs 12"), but we've already got that covered with an arbitrary 40 ft. ground speed which allows us to give it some light armour without slowing it down.

I've made the following changes to the working draft:

Armor Class: ?? (+3 Dex, +1 martial training, +??), touch 13, flat-footed ??
Attack: Shadowless blade +13 melee (1d6+5 plus shadow wound/×4 if scythe, ×2 if chain); or shadow stars +12 ranged (1d6+3/19-20); or unarmed strike* +11 (1d8+3)
Full Attack: Shadowless blade +13/+8 melee (1d6+5 plus shadow wound/×4 if scythe, ×2 if chain); or shadowless blade +11/+6 melee (1d6+5 plus shadow wound/×4 if scythe, ×2 if chain) and off-hand shadowless blade +11 melee (1d6+5 plus shadow wound/×2 if chain, ×4 if scythe); or shadow stars +12/+7 ranged (1d6+3/19-20); or unarmed strike* +11/+6 (1d8+3)
*The Shadow Walker can attack with a kama, nunchaku or siangham with the same attack bonus and damage as its unarmed strike.

Martial Artistry (Ex): The Shadow Walker possesses the AC bonus, flurry of blows and unarmed strike abilities of a 6th-level monk. It adds its inherent monklike abilities to any monk levels it might acquire. Thus, a 3th-level Shadow Walker monk possesses the AC bonus, flurry of blows and unarmed strike of a 9th-level monk.


Heck, how about going whole hog and giving it a monk's bonus feats too?:

Feats: 5 regular plus 5 fighterᴮ plus 3 monkᴮ plus 3 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (ninja skills!) plus Improved Unarmed Strikeᴮ
For the other monk bonus feats, I was thinking Improved Grappleᴮ, Improved Tripᴮ, Stunning Fistᴮ

Martial Artistry (Ex): The Shadow Walker possesses the bonus feats, AC bonus, flurry of blows and unarmed strike abilities of a 6th-level monk. It adds its inherent monklike abilities to any monk levels it might acquire. Thus, a 3th-level Shadow Walker monk possesses the AC bonus, flurry of blows and unarmed strike of a 9th-level monk.

Shouldn't it be "grapple check" rather than "grappling check"? In any case, I'm ok with Hurl as you've written it. It's unique, and it gives this thing a lot of combat options!

I'm game for the more comprehensive Martial Artistry (ie, your second option there).

freyar said:

Shouldn't it be "grapple check" rather than "grappling check"? In any case, I'm ok with Hurl as you've written it. It's unique, and it gives this thing a lot of combat options!

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Yes it should, I'll correct that for the update.

freyar said:

I'm game for the more comprehensive Martial Artistry (ie, your second option there).

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Fine by me!

Updating Shadow Walker Working Draft.

Is the damage for Hurl OK for you? It's based on its 1d8 grapple damage "upsized" to Large and with 1.5 times Str bonus. We could add an explanation of that too the text if you like, e.g.: "The damage of the hurl attack equals the unarmed strike damage the Shadow Walker would inflict if it were a size larger than its actual size, plus 1½ times the Shadow Walker’s Strength bonus."

We were going to increase its Wisdom if for no other reason than to provide an insight bonus to AC. Did we decide on a number for that?

We gave our Ninja Spirit Shadow Wis 14, for a +2 AC bonus.

What Armour Class are we aiming for here. The original creature has AC 0, which is equivalent to AC 20 in 3E terms.

Should we aim for the same? That'd mean, say +3 Dex, +1 martial artistry plus another 6 points from somewhere else, some of which will be from its Martial Artistry Wisdom bonus.

Come to think of it, the Ninja Spirit Shadow got a deflection bonus from its Wisdom rather than an insight bonus and the Monk's AC bonus ability is typeless. Shouldn't we cut the deflection bonus and give it a +3 martial artistry bonus instead?

For the same reason, we should cut the "and gains an insight bonus to AC equal to its Wisdom bonus" from the Shadow Walker's Martial Training SA.

Yes, the Hurl damage is fine.

Well, if we cut too much of the AC bonus, we'll have a hard time hitting AC 20, and even that may be a touch low for its HD and likely CR. Or do you also want to give it some armor?

freyar said:

Yes, the Hurl damage is fine.

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Good. I'll update the Shadow Walker Working Draft with the damage explanation then.

freyar said:

Well, if we cut too much of the AC bonus, we'll have a hard time hitting AC 20, and even that may be a touch low for its HD and likely CR. Or do you also want to give it some armor?

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Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough.

I'm not talking about reducing the monk-based AC bonus, but pointing out that the type we've got in the AC line is wrong.

The monk's AC Bonus ability includes the Wisdom bonus PLUS an additional +1 every 5 levels. E.g. a character with Wisdom 15 (+2 bonus) and 6 levels in the monk class (+1 bonus) has an AC bonus of +3 from the ability. It shouldn't be listed separately in the Armour Class line as (+1 monk bonus, +2 "Wis").

Furthermore, the class description says the Monk's AC bonus is typeless, so is shouldn't say "insight" or "deflection".

We should have something like "+X bonus [from martial artistry]" in its place, with X equal to the creature's Wisdom bonus plus the monk-equivalent additional bonus.

Hmm... come to think of it, how does Wizards/Paizo normally express the monk's AC bonus in stat blocks? I think I'll pull out a few sourcebooks and check.

Cleon said:

Hmm... come to think of it, how does Wizards/Paizo normally express the monk's AC bonus in stat blocks? I think I'll pull out a few sourcebooks and check.

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...okay, after wasting some time checking through Dungeon Magazines and the DM's Guide NPC section and finding monks without full breakdowns to their AC, but just "AC X, touch Y, flat-footed Z" the first fully appropriate sample I found is the Vampire 9th-level Monk/4th-level Shadowdancer in the 3.5 Monster Manual, which has:

Armor Class: 32 (+4 Dex, +6 natural, +6 Wis, +1 intrinsic, bracers of armor +3, ring of protection +2), touch 23, flat-footed 32

I also found three 4th level monks with "+X Wis" in their AC breakdowns - the Armand Warden in Monster Manual III, the Kuo-Toa Monitor in Monster Manual V and the Dolgaunt monk in the Eberron Campaign Guide. Those are less useful, since they are all one monk level short of receiving a level-based AC bonus.

That means the Ninja Spirit Shadow should have "+2 Wis" instead of "+2 deflection", and out Shadow Walker should have "+X Wis, +1 intrinsic".

freyar said:

Well, if we cut too much of the AC bonus, we'll have a hard time hitting AC 20, and even that may be a touch low for its HD and likely CR. Or do you also want to give it some armor?

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I'm fine aiming for AC 20. I was just a little concerned about the combination with the 50% miss chance from its Shadow Displacement. That'd give it an Armour Class in the same ballpark as the Reaper (AC 21), Veiled Maidens (AC 18) and General (AC 20), so it does seem appropriate.

So I was thinking we can give it a magical item or two to make up any difference with the AC. We could give it some natural armour as well or instead, but NA doesn't seem quite right for a "shadowy" creature.

As I tried to explain earlier, the addition of Martial Artistry to its SQ means the "and gains an insight bonus to AC equal to its Wisdom bonus" in Martial Training results in it getting double its Wisdom bonus to AC, as it also gets it from the Artistry's monk-level AC bonus ability. That's why I suggested we should cut that line from Martial Training.

However, I've just had a better idea. How about we change that Martial Training line to "and gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to its Intelligence bonus"?

Putting it together, how about this:

Armor Class: 20 (+3 Dex, +2 Wis, +1 intrinsic, bracers of armor +2, + 2 dodge), touch 18, flat-footed 15
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 17, Con —, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 14

Martial Training (Ex): change to "and gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to its Intelligence bonus".

Possessions: shadowless blade, +2 bracers of armor.

Sure, that'll work! Though that's a few posts to process.