Garrote Questions

elecgraystone · Nov 30, 2009

CaBaNa said:
The garrote is just too weak.

It's not bad as long as you make grabbing a focus of your character. A human brutal rogue with an 16 strength can start off with garrote training and improved grab. So you start off with a grab attack that's +7 vs ref and deals 1d4+3 (plus sneak attack if possible). Then every round after that you just spend a minor action to keep having combat advantage.

+7 isn't bad at all for an attack against ref at first level. Pick up wrestler's gloves (+1) or grizzly gauntlets (+3) for extra bonuses.

CaBaNa · Nov 30, 2009

I don't think this adds sneak attack damage, a grab isn't a rogue attack power, or even an attack... But I'm no expert on Rogue's, nor on how Sneak Attack works, so I'd have to look it up to say with any certainty...

1d4+3 for a full rounds standard action is kinda lacking... it's not the to-hit that is the main ingredient in the weak sauce, it's the damage.

H.M.Gimlord · Nov 30, 2009

CaBaNa: The garrote training feat allows you to use your at-will powers during the grab and grants you combat advantage for the duration of the grab. As long as you can keep your enemy from escaping your grab, you can inflict at-will and sneak attack damage (1d4+3+2d6=max19 points) every round, in addition to the enemy's restrained condition. It's actually very powerful considering a flank is usually the way a rogue gains CA. With a garrote, he can do it alone.

CaBaNa · Nov 30, 2009

But it took two standard actions,

1d4+3 on the first and grabbed

1d4+3+2d6 on the second

total of 26 max, so max damage per standard action is 13...

Add in a third standard action, and it jumps up to 45, or 15 max damage per standard action.

weak for a striker, even assuming max damage was rolled.

Theroc · Nov 30, 2009

You're also 'Controlling' the victim, unlike a 'standard' striker. You're sacrificing damage for constant combat advantage and hindering your victim. At least, that's how it seems.

elecgraystone · Nov 30, 2009

CaBaNa said:
I don't think this adds sneak attack damage, a grab isn't a rogue attack power, or even an attack... But I'm no expert on Rogue's, nor on how Sneak Attack works, so I'd have to look it up to say with any certainty...

PHB, page 290 under grab: "Make a Strength attack vs. Reflex."
PHB pg 117 "Sneak Attack: Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and are using a weapon from the light blade, the crossbow, or the sling weapon group, an attack you make against that enemy deals extra damage if the attack hits.

So grabbing is a strength attack, the garrote gives the attack damage, and garrote training makes it a light blade attack. You now have all the requirements for sneak attack.

CaBaNa said:
1d4+3 for a full rounds standard action is kinda lacking... it's not the to-hit that is the main ingredient in the weak sauce, it's the damage.

Damage is EXACTLY the same as if you'd have used a dagger (well one less do to str instead of dex on first attack,unless you crit since garrote is high crit), and they've seemed fairly popular in the rogues I've seen. Plus you control the victim AND have auto combat advantage. Seems like an awesome way to take care of those pesky mobile ranged mobs. No shift and range attack for them.

CaBaNa · Nov 30, 2009

Damage is exactly the same as if you'd used a dagger, except the dagger didn't cost a feat...

The control part of a garrote does NOT give the restrained condition, it only gives the immobilized condition, and only to one target. This still allows them to attack, and take their full turn.

The auto-CA is nice, but is it worth the low damage and feat cost?

I see where someone would enjoy the Garrote and use it, but I wouldn't...

elecgraystone · Nov 30, 2009

I think you are missing what immobilized does to a ranged/caster when it happens next to a melee foe that has a good Basic Melee attack (like the brutal rogue would). You make them attack in melee, which sucks for them, or attack normally and you get a free attack from provoking. SO you limit their attack greatly or you do 2d4 + dex + dex. Also it's auto-CA, high crit AND immobilization for low damage and feat. Sounds pretty good IMO, but to each their own.

CaBaNa · Nov 30, 2009

The Garrote could be useful, you've proven that much, it's just not for me.

elecgraystone · Nov 30, 2009

CaBaNa said:
The Garrote could be useful, you've proven that much, it's just not for me.

In my last post I was just weighing the pro's and con's of the garrote. I actually agree with your quote. I like to be mobile and the garrote requires you to stand still for the most part. So, while I think you can make a great character based around the garrote, I don't see myself making one.