3.5E Nehaschimic Dragons

**paradox42** · Monday, 30th November, 2009, 03:08 AM

Well, since we never got official versions of the other two Nehaschimic Dragon types mentioned in the Epic Bestiary (Volume 1), and since I had experience working out the numbers for such a beast (namely, the Firmament/Brane Dragon), I decided to make versions of the Black Hole Dragon and Quasar Dragon for my own use. I'm not sure how closely my versions will/do match what UK himself had in mind for them; these are my own creations based on the clues I have (mostly, the lines mentioning them in the Bestiary). Hopefully other people who wanted to see them will find these useful- and if UK is willing to specify how his versions are different, perhaps we'll have official 3.5 versions yet.

Since UK's moving on to all-4E design, and doesn't seem to have started much dragon work yet given how the first monster book is a Vampire Bestiary, I trust I'm not stepping on any toes here. My versions are of course 3.5 since that's what I run (more or less).

Singularity Dragon
Black Hole Dragon

Macro-Tiny Dragon (Extraplanar)
Environment: Any (usually deep space)
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: Wyrmling 512; Very Young 536; Young 560; Juvenile 584; Young Adult 608; Adult 632; Mature Adult 656; Old 680; Very Old 704; Ancient 728; Wyrm 752; Great Wyrm 776
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Neutral
Advancement: Wyrmling 513-535 HD (Macro-Tiny); Very Young 537-559 HD (Macro-Tiny); Young 561-583 HD (Macro-Tiny); Juvenile 585-607 HD (Macro-Tiny); Young Adult 609-631 HD (Macro-Tiny); Adult 633-655 HD (Macro-Tiny); Mature Adult 657-679 HD (Macro-Tiny); Old 681-703 HD (Macro-Tiny); Very Old 705-727 HD (Macro-Tiny); Ancient 729-751 HD (Macro-Tiny); Wyrm 753-775 HD (Macro-Tiny); Great Wyrm 777-799 HD (Macro-Tiny); Great-Great Wyrm 801-823 HD (Macro-Tiny)
Level Adjustment: Wyrmling +256; Very Young +268; Young +280; Juvenile +292; Young Adult +304; Adult +316; Mature Adult +328; Old +340; Very Old +352; Ancient +364; Wyrm +376; Great Wyrm +388

As the singularity draws closer, space pinching itself out of existence in front of you, you get the unnerving impression of motion. With time pinching out along with the space ahead, the vast singularity is all you can see before you, expanding to fill all the existence you have left. It is not until you notice the suspicious regularity of the six lobes of the "accretion disk" (could those be... wings?) that you recognize the serpentine shape of the event horizon itself- which is now unfolding and extending a large forward portion like some sort of mouth or head- towards you. By then, you realize, it is far too late.

Singularity Dragons By Age
Age	Size	Hit Dice (hit points)	AC	Base Attack/Grapple	Attack	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Breath Weapon	Mind Warp DC
Wyrmling	Ma-T	512d1000+8,192 (520,192 hp)	649 (-128 size, +128 deflection, +64 divine, +64 gravitic mastery, +511 natural)	+512/ +712	+552	n/a	n/a	+514	24d20 HD (DC 410)	522
Very Young	Ma-T	536d1000+11,792 (547,792 hp)	709 (-128 size, +132 deflection, +80 divine, +80 gravitic mastery, +535 natural)	+536/ +772	+612	n/a	n/a	+564	25d20 HD (DC 460)	570
Young	Ma-T	560d1000+15,680 (575,680 hp)	769 (-128 size, +136 deflection, +96 divine, +96 gravitic mastery, +559 natural)	+560/ +832	+672	n/a	n/a	+614	26d20 HD (DC 510)	618
Juvenile	Ma-T	584d1000+19,856 (603,856 hp)	829 (-128 size, +140 deflection, +112 divine, +112 gravitic mastery, +583 natural)	+584/ +892	+732	n/a	n/a	+664	27d20 HD (DC 560)	666
Young Adult	Ma-T	608d1000+24,320 (632,320 hp)	889 (-128 size, +144 deflection, +128 divine, +128 gravitic mastery, +607 natural)	+608/ +952	+792	n/a	n/a	+714	28d20 HD (DC 610)	714
Adult	Ma-T	632d1000+29,072 (661,072 hp)	949 (-128 size, +148 deflection, +144 divine, +144 gravitic mastery, +631 natural)	+632/ +1012	+852	n/a	n/a	+764	29d20 HD (DC 660)	762
Mature Adult	Ma-T	656d1000+34,112 (690,112 hp)	1009 (-128 size, +152 deflection, +160 divine, +160 gravitic mastery, +655 natural)	+656/ +1072	+912	n/a	n/a	+814	30d20 HD (DC 710)	810
Old	Ma-T	680d1000+39,440 (719,440 hp)	1069 (-128 size, +156 deflection, +176 divine, +176 gravitic mastery, +679 natural)	+680/ +1132	+972	n/a	n/a	+864	31d20 HD (DC 760)	858
Very Old	Ma-T	704d1000+45,056 (749,056 hp)	1129 (-128 size, +160 deflection, +192 divine, +192 gravitic mastery, +703 natural)	+704/ +1192	+1032	n/a	n/a	+914	32d20 HD (DC 810)	906
Ancient	Ma-T	728d1000+50,960 (778,960 hp)	1189 (-128 size, +164 deflection, +208 divine, +208 gravitic mastery, +727 natural)	+728/ +1252	+1092	n/a	n/a	+964	33d20 HD (DC 860)	954
Wyrm	Ma-T	752d1000+57,152 (809,152 hp)	1249 (-128 size, +168 deflection, +224 divine, +224 gravitic mastery, +751 natural)	+752/ +1312	+1152	n/a	n/a	+1014	34d20 HD (DC 910)	1002
Great Wyrm	Ma-T	776d1000+63,632 (839,632 hp)	1309 (-128 size, +172 deflection, +240 divine, +240 gravitic mastery, +775 natural)	+776/ +1372	+1212	n/a	n/a	+1064	35d20 HD (DC 960)	1050

**paradox42** · Monday, 30th November, 2009, 03:11 AM

Singularity Dragon Abilities By Age
Age	Speed	STR	DEX	CON	INT	WIS	CHA	Special Abilities	Damage Reduction	Caster Level	SR
Wyrmling	Superluminal	90	10	42	266	267	266	Alter Reality, Dead Zone, Divine Bonus, Extradimensional, Gravitic Mastery, Mind Warp	510/antimatter	384th	650
Very Young	Superluminal	98	10	54	274	279	274		535/antimatter	428th	706
Young	Superluminal	106	10	66	282	291	282	1 total Virtual Size Category	560/antimatter	472nd	762
Juvenile	Superluminal	114	10	78	290	303	290	1 total Virtual Size Category	580/antimatter	516th	818
Young Adult	Superluminal	122	10	90	298	315	298	2 total Virtual Size Categories	605/antimatter	560th	874
Adult	Superluminal	130	10	102	306	327	306	2 total Virtual Size Categories	630/antimatter	604th	930
Mature Adult	Superluminal	138	10	114	314	339	314	3 total Virtual Size Categories	655/antimatter	648th	986
Old	Superluminal	146	10	126	322	351	322	3 total Virtual Size Categories	680/antimatter	692nd	1042
Very Old	Superluminal	154	10	138	330	363	330	4 total Virtual Size Categories	700/antimatter	736th	1098
Ancient	Superluminal	162	10	150	338	375	338	4 total Virtual Size Categories	725/antimatter	780th	1154
Wyrm	Superluminal	170	10	162	346	387	346	5 total Virtual Size Categories	750/antimatter	824th	1210
Great Wyrm	Superluminal	178	10	174	354	399	354	5 total Virtual Size Categories	775/antimatter	868th	1266

Singularity Dragons live between Spirit and Matter, a joining of base flesh and enlightened transcendence into a nightmarish whole that simply consumes everything it comes across to fuel its own monstrous growth. Usually they spend their (subjective) time in self-contemplation in the pocket realities that exist behind the event horizons of the black holes they so resemble, but once every few million years some cosmic cataclysm or similar event occurs which draw their attention to the universes they otherwise barely touch. Sometimes Singularity Dragons come into conflict with Time Lords or other similar Eternal beings their contemplations show them, but usually they are wise enough to find ways to avoid such confrontations since they are aware that their own power is far less than those great beings'.

Combat
A Singularity Dragon nearly always opens combat with a breath attack, in the hopes of consuming as much energy/levels from its opposition as possible and simultaneously inflating its own powers further. Such dragons prefer to use their breath more than any other weapon at their disposal, and will use other abilities largely in an effort to eliminate any resistance opponents may have against that attack. When fighting opponents who are somehow able to resist the breath weapon and its Dead Zone (resisting the one is usually not possible without resisting the other, as the dragon well knows), a Singularity Dragon will rely on using delaying tactics to give its Extra-Dimensional presence time to work. Once it is large enough relative to its opposition, the dragon can be confident of victory.

Alter Reality (Su): Singularity Dragons can use their insanely powerful control over matter and energy to twist and warp reality into any desired form. Once per round, as a free action, a Singularity Dragon can duplicate any spell of a level equal to or less than its number of Automatic Metamagic Capacity feats + 9. This ability can even duplicate Epic spells of a DC up to the dragon's Spellcraft skill modifier + 20.

Breath Weapon (Su): A Singularity Dragon's breath weapon is a cone of annihilation and consumption which sucks in life force and matter to fuel the dragon. This permanently annihilates a number of the victims' hit dice or levels, 24d20 + 1d20 per age category of the dragon, and the dragon gains a (unnamed) bonus on armor class, attack rolls, checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks), difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, spells), initiative, saving throws, and Spell Resistance, equal to the number of levels/HD annihilated this way. The bonus lasts one hour before fading away (leaving the dragon hungry for more). Annihilation permanently removes the victim's HD or levels: the lost HD or levels can only be restored by an appropriate infusion of experience points. Immunity to Energy Drain or level loss is not proof against this effect, but it provides partial protection: such creatures only lose half the rolled number on a failed save. All targets ("immune" or not) are allowed a Reflex save against the breath weapon, and if successful lose only half the indicated number of levels (or one quarter for those with Energy Drain immunity).

Damage Reduction (Ex): A Singularity Dragon's Damage Reduction is only penetrated by weapons made of antimatter.

Dead Zone (Su): Singularity Dragons, by their very nature, suck in all matter and energy near them. This creates an area of Dead Magic around the dragon that extends to a radius of 3500 feet plus 500 feet per age category. This area of Dead Magic is not "true" Dead Magic, in that it is really an effect of the dragon sucking in all magical force near itself; therefore, the dragon's own spells and supernatural abilities are completely unaffected. Beings with a Divine bonus equal to or higher than that of the dragon are able to resist its pull enough to continue using their own spells and supernatural abilities without interference, though they must still contend with the dragon's normal immunities (for example, to all sub-Epic magic).

Divine Bonus (Su): Singularity Dragons use the matter and energy they consume to fuel their own transcendence and spiritual growth. A Singularity Dragon gains a divine bonus to: armor class, attack rolls, checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks), difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, or spells), initiative, saving throws, and Spell Resistance. The value of this bonus is equal to 48 + 16/age category of the dragon.

Extra-Dimensional (Ex): Starting after the first round it is encountered, a Singularity Dragon begins to expand to fill its opponents' perception of their universe. This bestows an additional Virtual Size Category each round on the dragon.

Energy Absorption (Ex): Singularity Dragons are healed by Sonic attacks.

Energy Immunity (Ex): Singularity Dragons are immune to Fire-based effects.

Energy Reflection (Ex): Singularity Dragons reflect Acid attacks.

Gravitic Mastery (Ex): Singularity Dragons are among the most powerful gravitational sources in any universe they enter. A Singularity Dragon gains a gravitic mastery bonus to: armor class, attack rolls, checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks), difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, or spells), initiative, saving throws, and Spell Resistance. The value of this bonus is equal to 48 + 16/age category of the dragon.

Mind Warp (Ex): The Singularity Dragon's all-consuming presence can pull in even the thoughts of creatures that get too close to it. This presence extends to 2560 feet per age category of the dragon. Creatures within this radius failing their Will saves against the listed DC go permanently insane; their minds are no longer able to comprehend or perceive anything but the dragon itself as they fall to their doom in its maw.

Transdimensional Fortitude & Reflexes (Su): Singularity Dragons exist between the dimensions of Spirit and Matter. They never fail Fortitude or Reflex saving throws.

Adventure Ideas:
Low-Cosmic: Rumors reach you of a city, somehow suspended inside a Singularity Dragon, populated by beings who survived being swallowed by its vast maw.

Mid-Cosmic: A Singularity Dragon loses its ability to use its breath weapon, and realizes that this is because the power has been stolen by another entity using it as a shortcut to transcendence. Can it reclaim the stolen power? A more interesting question may be, should it be allowed to?

High Cosmic: A Great Wyrm Singularity Dragon begins hunting and eating others of its own kind, for reasons known only to itself; others scattered across the universe begin to gather/mobilize for war.

That's my version of the Black Hole Dragon. It's a truly nasty customer, though it does bear an uncomfortable resemblance to the Void Dragon (given what concepts the two are tied to, I suppose this was inevitable). I hope I've made it different enough to be interesting- the idea that the dragon's hunger (gained from Matter) is used to fuel its own growth (from Spirit) was a great hook to hang abilities on, I thought. UK chose those dimensional associations very well.

Quasar Dragon coming up next.

**Belzamus** · Monday, 30th November, 2009, 03:56 AM

Freaking. Awesome. Great work, as always Paradox.

I do have a problem with these, though, and that's the fact that all of them (and, really, all non-Demiurge at this level) are glass cannons. If the breath hits, they win. If their breath is negated, they have almost no chance of winning.

Just comparing the GW to Khorvanis, a Stage II Demiurge, CR 774,

HP: 840,000 vs. 19 million
Initiative: +480 vs. +400, Perfect Initiative
Armor Class: 1,300 vs 1,200, but Khorvanis' Touch AC is 1,000 as well.
Dead Zone Radius: 10,000 ft. vs. 80,000 ft.

More critically compared,

Spoiler:

Now, far from bragging, or even calling this thing weak, I mean to bring up a conundrum in the system at this point.

Against a Demiurge, this dragon is utterly outclassed in almost every imagineable way.

Against a First One, it'd be a miracle if they even got a round before the BHD annihilated them.

Same thing with the Adamics, honestly. They pwn Immortals and get owned by Sidereals.

Kind of makes these things difficult to use, since there's not really a level bracket where they're a good challenge. They're either a 1-round TPK or they get 1-shotted.

Of course, Khorvanis' job is to say "get out of my universe, you degenerate piece of temporal trash!". Being 250 ECL higher than his divine template throws his CR a little out of whack, I think.

A decent solution might be reworking ELs at that level to be based around a 1-character party, rather than a 4. A party ECL 550 First Ones might be closer to that narrow margin than a single Stage II Demiruge. (who's ECL is almost identical to the GW BHD's).

Then, though, we have the issue that, flavor-wise, this thing SHOULD devour First Ones, shouldn't it?

Oh, well. It's still awesome, regarldess. I actually like it better than the Nexus Dragon.

Any tease for the Quasar's breath? Drain Divine Ranks, maybe?

EDIT: Went over it a little more closely, and even assuming it got the drop on Khorvanis somehow (let's not dwell on the specifics) and was able to get in range to use its Breath without hitting K's Dead Zone (or ignoring it since K is DvR 96), he gets socked for 35d20 HD Annihilation.

Which sounds like a ton.

Except,

a.) Khorvanis is Nebulous, so 50% he just ignores it.
b.) Evil Eye makes it 35 HD off of 480.
c.) With a +988 Reflex Save, K takes 1/2 damage, as in 17 HD.

And then he kills the miserable sod. With 1 of his 600 attacks per round, which, thanks the BHD's egregious Divine Bonus deals a miserable amount of damage. +240d1000, to be exact. And if he doesn't crit, it takes another shot to finish the beast.

So, we have one of two conclusions to draw.

The BHD needs to be meaner to justify a CR that high.

Khorvanis, as an Avatar of the Time Lord, is even stronger than his CR suggests, despite it being 200 points higher than a normal Demiurge of his HD. (This is entriely possible. He has over half the Transcendental Ability list on his character sheet.) In which case, I should probably throw together a bog-standard Stage 3 Demiurge (4 boring Artifacts and only 128 Divine Abilities) and see how it compares to the BHD.

**Alzrius** · Monday, 30th November, 2009, 04:16 AM

Paradox, you are the wind beneath my wings.

I also hope U_K chimes in to add his thoughts/notes on this, since it'd be great to get "official" nehaschimic dragons.

One thing I wanted to ask, the Epic Bestiary notes that all nehaschimics gain a bonus cosmic ability that stacks with itself at each age category. What ability is that for the singularity dragon?

**Alzrius** · Monday, 30th November, 2009, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by Belzamus

Khorvanis, as an Avatar of the Time Lord, is even stronger than his CR suggests, despite it being 200 points higher than a normal Demiurge of his HD. (This is entriely possible. He has over half the Transcendental Ability list on his character sheet.) In which case, I should probably throw together a bog-standard Stage 3 Demiurge (4 boring Artifacts and only 128 Divine Abilities) and see how it compares to the BHD.

This (the emboldened area) is where you lost me; no Stage II Demiurge should be able to have that many transcendental abilities.

One transcendental ability is worth six cosmic abilities, while one cosmic ability is worth six divine abilities; hence, one transcendental ability is worth thirty-six divine abilities.

Now, there are fifty-four transcendental abilities in Ascension, meaning that Khorvanis has at least twenty-eight.

A Stage II Demiurge has ninety-six divine abilities from its template (and no others, since divinity templates do not stack), which is equal to 2.667 transcendental abilities.

Now, Khorvanis would have four artifacts that he could give up to gain more abilities instead. Each artifact sacrificed would be worth a number of divine abilities equal to his divine bonus (+96). So if he sacrificed all four, he'd have three hundred eighty-four divine abilities. Adding that to the ninety-six from his template, and that's a grand total of four hundred eighty.

Four hundred eighty divided by thirty-six comes out to 13.334, or very nearly one-quarter of all listed transcendental powers.

Now, he could gain more if he sacrificed feats also (since six feats equals one divine ability), but that'd mean that he'd need to give up two hundred sixteen feats per transcendental ability. If he has the minimum number of Hit Dice for a Stage II Demiurge (480) then he'd have one hundred sixty-one feats, which isn't enough. If he had the maximum that a Stage II Demiurge can have before hitting Stage III (639), then he'd have two hundred fourteen feats total...two shy of being able to buy even one more transcendental ability.

It should be noted that this doesn't take into account a Stage II Demiurge's Dimensional Mastery abilities it gets automatically from its template (which are transcendental-level powers), but even so, that'd be just three of the six abilities listed.

Hence, even though no other aspects of his build have been taken into account, it seems to me that Khorvanis is overpowered.

**paradox42** · Monday, 30th November, 2009, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by Alzrius

Paradox, you are the wind beneath my wings.

I also hope U_K chimes in to add his thoughts/notes on this, since it'd be great to get "official" nehaschimic dragons.

One thing I wanted to ask, the Epic Bestiary notes that all nehaschimics gain a bonus cosmic ability that stacks with itself at each age category. What ability is that for the singularity dragon?

There both is, and isn't, one. UK "cheated" a little bit with the Nexus Dragon, in that its Interdimensional is supposed to be its Cosmic- but of course Interdimensional is Trans instead. Also, the version the Nexus Dragon has is considerably weaker than the regular one, but it keeps improving with age category.

For the Singularity Dragon, I couldn't come up with a Cosmic I liked, though I almost went with Abrogate. I was afraid that would make it too much like the Void Dragon, though. What I did instead, when I decided to "cheat" the same way, was create a sort of weakened Dead Zone (also a Trans as the normal ability) by saying that critters with a Divine bonus above the dragon's can get around it. The regular Dead Zone doesn't say that, it's absolute. Also, the regular Dead Zone just covers the immortal's divine aura; in the dragon's case I chose to have the ability approximate a Medium-range emanation (100 ft. + 10/level). It doesn't correspond exactly because I saw it was tracking close to the number I used in the final version, and decided to make the math simpler.

If somebody can come up with a better Cosmic for it, I say great! The present ability works very well flavor-wise, but isn't entirely tracking with the "one Cosmic per age category" rule as you noted.

**paradox42** · Monday, 30th November, 2009, 05:02 AM

And of course, Belzamus is correct in pointing out the "glass cannon" nature of these dragons. Of course, as has been pointed out in other threads where I mentioned my current games, pretty much every monster I've used against my players has proven to be such a thing- and I'm fairly sure that's not a fluke. My players are powergamers, true, but we tweaked our house rules so as to severely nerf a lot of the big system breaks in Epic levels (for instance, we made Multispell a Divine Ability rather than an Epic feat- that's just one minor example).

Uses of monsters become more about the flavor and less about the actual combat at these levels, I think. You want to have the players be heroes and have fun taking out the world-ending threat when necessary, but it's better to have them waiting around as antagonists that rarely (if ever) put on an actual appearance. If they do show up, have groups show up. Solo monsters just can't last in these levels. Combat is fast and brutal, and frequently one-sided, at these heights; whoever goes first nearly always wins (and in fact, as you yourself pointed out, nearly always one-shots the enemy). The thing is, this is true of everybody. So combat becomes increasingly rare, because nobody wants to be ambushed and killed- and if one side starts something, well, the other side's counterattack can almost certainly wipe out side 1. In situations such as that, diplomacy is a better means of resolving conflict, because that way everybody gets to live.

**paradox42** · Monday, 30th November, 2009, 06:32 AM

Here it is. An actual quasar is just a supermassive black hole at a galaxy's heart that happens to be in a phase of actively consuming matter and spewing jets of radiation out along its poles; it is the jets that we see when we look at quasars and end up wondering what could possibly produce a radiation source that bright and powerful. This was, for obvious reasons, not a great hook to hang a monster on, after the one I just posted a couple of hours ago at the start of this thread. So, I went a slightly different direction- as you'll see.

Quasar Dragon
White Hole Dragon

Dragon (Extraplanar)
Environment: Any (usually deep space)
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: Wyrmling 320; Very Young 344; Young 368; Juvenile 392; Young Adult 416; Adult 440; Mature Adult 464; Old 488; Very Old 512; Ancient 536; Wyrm 560; Great Wyrm 584
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Neutral
Advancement: Wyrmling 321-343 HD (Macro-Diminutive); Very Young 345-367 HD (Macro-Diminutive); Young 369-391 HD (Macro-Diminutive); Juvenile 393-415 HD (Macro-Diminutive); Young Adult 417-439 HD (Macro-Diminutive); Adult 441-463 HD (Macro-Diminutive); Mature Adult 465-487 HD (Macro-Diminutive); Old 489-511 HD (Macro-Diminutive); Very Old 513-535 HD (Macro-Tiny); Ancient 537-559 HD (Macro-Tiny); Wyrm 561-583 HD (Macro-Tiny); Great Wyrm 585-607 HD (Macro-Tiny); Great-Great Wyrm 608-631 HD (Macro-Tiny)
Level Adjustment: Wyrmling +160; Very Young +172; Young +184; Juvenile +196; Young Adult +208; Adult +220; Mature Adult +232; Old +244; Very Old +256; Ancient +268; Wyrm +280; Great Wyrm +292

Somehow, in the blaze of light and energy before you, you are able to discern a vast serpentine shape, glaring brilliant white, blue, yellow, and other colors like the power of a thousand suns. It unfolds six incredible wings like arcs of black lightning, against the glare, and turns its head towards you. Or rather, it turns away and looks at the space behind itself. Or was it that... wait, how did it do that? You wonder this to yourself as the creature somehow manages to apparently move in several directions at the same time, moving out to fill more space than its body should be capable of covering- and continuing to do so as you watch. Wherever this thing came from, it seems to be rapidly making itself at home in your reality! If this keeps up, soon you won't have any reality left except this beast...

Quasar Dragons By Age
Age	Size	Hit Dice (hit points)	AC	Base Attack/Grapple	Attack	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Breath Weapon	Mind Warp DC
Wyrmling	Ma-D	320d1000+4,480 (324,480 hp)	473 (-64 size, +80 deflection, +64 foresight, +64 insight, +319 natural)	+320/ +513	+421	+304	n/a	n/a	160d1000 (DC 302)	378
Very Young	Ma-D	344d1000+6,880 (350,880 hp)	535 (-64 size, +86 deflection, +80 foresight, +80 insight, +343 natural)	+344/ +573	+481	+354	n/a	n/a	172d1000 (DC 352)	428
Young	Ma-D	368d1000+9,568 (377,568 hp)	597 (-64 size, +92 deflection, +96 foresight, +96 insight, +367 natural)	+368/ +633	+541	+404	n/a	n/a	184d1000 (DC 402)	478
Juvenile	Ma-D	392d1000+12,544 (404,544 hp)	659 (-64 size, +98 deflection, +112 foresight, +112 insight, +391 natural)	+392/ +693	+601	+454	n/a	n/a	196d1000 (DC 452)	528
Young Adult	Ma-D	416d1000+15,808 (431,808 hp)	721 (-64 size, +104 deflection, +128 foresight, +128 insight, +415 natural)	+416/ +753	+661	+504	n/a	n/a	208d1000 (DC 502)	578
Adult	Ma-D	440d1000+19,360 (459,360 hp)	783 (-64 size, +110 deflection, +144 foresight, +144 insight, +439 natural)	+440/ +813	+721	+554	n/a	n/a	220d1000 (DC 552)	628
Mature Adult	Ma-D	464d1000+23,200 (487,200 hp)	845 (-64 size, +116 deflection, +160 foresight, +160 insight, +463 natural)	+464/ +873	+781	+604	n/a	n/a	232d1000 (DC 602)	678
Old	Ma-D	488d1000+27,328 (515,328 hp)	907 (-64 size, +122 deflection, +176 foresight, +176 insight, +487 natural)	+488/ +933	+841	+654	n/a	n/a	244d1000 (DC 652)	728
Very Old	Ma-T	512d1000+31,744 (543,744 hp)	905 (-128 size, +128 deflection, +192 foresight, +192 insight, +511 natural)	+512/ +997	+837	+704	n/a	n/a	256d1000 (DC 702)	778
Ancient	Ma-T	536d1000+36,448 (572,448 hp)	967 (-128 size, +134 deflection, +208 foresight, +208 insight, +535 natural)	+536/ +1057	+897	+754	n/a	n/a	268d1000 (DC 752)	828
Wyrm	Ma-T	560d1000+41,440 (601,440 hp)	1029 (-128 size, +140 deflection, +224 foresight, +224 insight, +559 natural)	+560/ +1117	+957	+804	n/a	n/a	280d1000 (DC 802)	878
Great Wyrm	Ma-T	584d1000+46,720 (630,720 hp)	1091 (-128 size, +146 deflection, +240 foresight, +240 insight, +583 natural)	+584/ +1177	+1017	+854	n/a	n/a	292d1000 (DC 852)	928

**Upper_Krust** · Tuesday, 8th December, 2009, 07:30 PM

Hey paradox42 mate!

Originally Posted by paradox42

And of course, Belzamus is correct in pointing out the "glass cannon" nature of these dragons. Of course, as has been pointed out in other threads where I mentioned my current games, pretty much every monster I've used against my players has proven to be such a thing- and I'm fairly sure that's not a fluke. My players are powergamers, true, but we tweaked our house rules so as to severely nerf a lot of the big system breaks in Epic levels (for instance, we made Multispell a Divine Ability rather than an Epic feat- that's just one minor example).

Uses of monsters become more about the flavor and less about the actual combat at these levels, I think. You want to have the players be heroes and have fun taking out the world-ending threat when necessary, but it's better to have them waiting around as antagonists that rarely (if ever) put on an actual appearance. If they do show up, have groups show up. Solo monsters just can't last in these levels. Combat is fast and brutal, and frequently one-sided, at these heights; whoever goes first nearly always wins (and in fact, as you yourself pointed out, nearly always one-shots the enemy). The thing is, this is true of everybody. So combat becomes increasingly rare, because nobody wants to be ambushed and killed- and if one side starts something, well, the other side's counterattack can almost certainly wipe out side 1. In situations such as that, diplomacy is a better means of resolving conflict, because that way everybody gets to live.

Is that a facet of ultra-high level play, or a flaw in 3.5E? I suppose you could argue both. Not sure I am a big fan of 'lose initiative = you die' type of gaming.