Is dominated ally still an ally for purpose of powers?

Alnag · Dec 4, 2009

Is dominated ally still an ally for purpose of powers?

Eg. I am casting area spell that hits enemies only. Or heals allies. Or moves allies or whatever... Is he/she an enemy? Or is he somehow "neutral". Can the player switch the ally mode as he or she feels suitable "ad hoc" or is there some other way to tell?

Thanks for any answer.

Ryujin · Dec 4, 2009

Yes; dominated or not, an ally is still an ally.

... which truly sucks when the Succubus has tweaked your party Fighter and he's charging you with blood in his eye.

Khime · Dec 4, 2009

Isn't an ally a willing target? So if I'm shooting a fireball at a dominated party member, he's not a willing target of the fireball, so he's automatically an enemy, right?

eamon · Dec 4, 2009

I don't think there's a clear-cut definition, but I'd say a creature is an ally as long as both sides wish that to be so. Mutual friendship, if you will ;-).

With this interpretation, you are not forced to consider a party member an ally, nor are they forced to let you. You can take an OA on a party member or heal a fallen foe (if he chooses to accept that healing).

This might be relevant to domination when (for instance) a fighter could stop a dominated friend from running over a cliff.

DracoSuave · Dec 5, 2009

Dominated is not 100% full control over your character.

Things that are not action-based are not under the control of the dominating character. If you have the ability as a Non-action to bolster your saving throws, for example, you can do so. Let's say a paragon path feature that let you spend an action point to automatically reroll a saving throw you just failed, provided it's not as a free action, or the Kalashtars' Dual Soul racial trait, or a Warden's Font of Life can be used against the dominated effect (it IS a choice).

Or rather, all dominated does is daze you, and put your actions (and only your actions) in the control of the dominator.

This also means that whether or not you are an enemy or an ally is under the choice of you, and the user of the power in question. Otherwise, if someone used a power on you that targets allies that allows you to make a free saving throw, your dominator could say 'NO!'

That's not what he gets to do. He only gets to decide your actions, and nothing else.

Dr_Ruminahui · Dec 5, 2009

Well, I both agree and disagree with DracoSuave.

For one, I don't think I the dominated character has full power over who is its ally or its enemy - for example, if dominated to hit his friend with an attack, the player couldn't say "the attack fails, because the target is "all enemies", and that's my ally, not my enemy".

Additionally, there has been some discussion as to whether dominated creatures get free actions, and who can take them (the creature or the one dominating it). My own opinion is that it is DMs call, and depends on the circumstances - for example, I have no problem with taking saves (even if free actions), but I wouldn't let him use free actions to negate the dominator's use of his actions.

Additionally, there is also debate on who decides whether one is an ally or an enemy for the purpose of the rules, as it isn't laid out in the rule books.

Stalker0 · Dec 5, 2009

I've also ruled it that you determine who your allies are. So if you think the dominate guy is your ally he is. If he's not, he's not.

eamon · Dec 5, 2009

Stalker0 said:
I've also ruled it that you determine who your allies are. So if you think the dominate guy is your ally he is. If he's not, he's not.

There are a few edge-cases, however, which suggest to me that a creature that doesn't want to be treated as an ally should be able to avoid being treated so. For instance, a cunning bard can slide a missed ally one square - if the bard get's to choose whose an ally, he could slide a missed monster 1 square, which potentially could have very nasty consequences or merely be tactically very powerful.

That's why I prefer the mutual friendship approach. In practice, you get to pick your allies at almost all times, but in the odd case where the target creature doesn't want to be affected as if he were an ally, it can choose not to be treated as an ally.

AbdulAlhazred · Dec 5, 2009

This has been debated ENDLESSLY all over the net. There is NO one single rule that handles every case perfectly. Even "mutual consent" can cause problems in some (admittedly rare) corner cases where a PC could benefit from being affected by an enemy targeting effect of another party member's power or a few powers that do things like get "+2 damage per enemy in the area of effect" (runespiral demons happen to have just such a power).

Only the DM can adjudicate who is an enemy or ally and you may also notice the rules never define these terms precisely, nor define a procedure for switching from one to the other, for exactly this reason.

babinro · Dec 5, 2009

Personally, I try to take confusion out of the domination condition.
To me the intention of the condition is to grant the creature access to the dominated character's At-Wills along with all their benefits. Dominated is a very rare condition like the Stun condition. It shouldn't be weakened.

Therefore if Monster A dominates a Cleric and casts Lance of Faith successfully on another PC, Monster A then grants any Monster of its choosing a +2 power bonus to their next attack rolls.

Forget about how powers or feats and the like may apply to allies/enemies. This attack is done with all the bonuses that would have been applied if it was done to the Monster itself.

PC Dominates Monster A, Monster A now benefits the PC's with its aura's and potentially damages the other Monsters with it for the duration of the domination.