A 4e Bar Fight...how to do it?

Nebulous · Dec 7, 2009

i've been thinking about this recently for when the party gets to a more lawless settlement down the campaign. But i'm not sure of the best way to do it.

My 4e players automatically want to reach for their power cards, but i want to deter them from this somehow. No blades, no magic, just beating the bejeezus out of pirates and ruffians with chairs, mugs and fists, with a few thrown through windows for good measure.

How would you approach this in such a way that it is:

A) relatively short. i don't want an hour + bar fight
B) The PCs have to use some sort of strategy/skills.
C) Getting knocked unconscious is a possibility, maybe due to just the sheer numbers of enemies attacking at once (like being in the middle of an angry mob)
D) Could be done without a battlemap if needed. Cinematic description, maybe, MAYBE just with minis for reference but nothing tied to the grid.

Story wise, i could just make it up as i go along, but i'd prefer some mechanics to back it up.

Hmm. i also have that WotC bar brawl card game i never used, maybe i could even break that out.

nebulous

ExploderWizard · Dec 7, 2009

In a lawless environment why wouldn't the PC's enemies (and the PC's) use weapons?

Without legal repercussions the participants should just go full bore if they mean to do violence. In order for the participants to use unarmed methods there must be a reason. Perhaps the bar is owned by a real tough dude that makes everyone check weapons and can back up the policy if need be?

Umbran · Dec 7, 2009

ExploderWizard said:
In a lawless environment why wouldn't the PC's enemies (and the PC's) use weapons?

Because killing isn't the actual desired outcome? Maybe it is a cultural norm? Or (*gasp*) maybe they have personal morals that don't require the rule of law to keep them from gutting people?

ExploderWizard · Dec 7, 2009

Umbran said:
Because killing isn't the actual desired outcome? Maybe it is a cultural norm? Or (*gasp*) maybe they have personal morals that don't require the rule of law to keep them from gutting people?

Who says there has to be killing? 4E permits knockout at 0 hp even if you are weilding the spikehooked reaping axe of death. Just say " I knock him out" when the final blow lands and ta-da! no gutting.

Umbran · Dec 7, 2009

ExploderWizard said:
4E permits knockout at 0 hp even if you are weilding the spikehooked reaping axe of death. Just say " I knock him out" when the final blow lands and ta-da! no gutting.

Most of my players have found such alternatives to be generally sub-optimal for barroom brawls. Whatever the rules may allow, it is cinematically inappropriate - the idea that somehow you can use your Reaping Scythe of Death Strike and the target only has a black eye after it is all over seems rather unsatisfying.

All in all - the DM in question has stated his desired result. Let's not argue about whether that's what he should do. Let's get to the business of helping him do it, hey what?

Simple variation #1 - however lawless the area is (and probably because it is so lawless) the local tavern/drinking establishments have a standard "no weapons" rule. Get caught with one, you get tossed out, possibly banned form it and other establishments, and so on. So, the players are forced to largely fight without the implements many of their powers depend upon.

Note that this will likely put several of your characters at a notable disadvantage. The basic fighters (martial strikers and defenders) will be better off than your wizardly-types, and so on. Be prepared for that.

ExploderWizard · Dec 7, 2009

Umbran said:
Most of my players have found such alternatives to be generally sub-optimal for barroom brawls. Whatever the rules may allow, it is cinematically inappropriate - the idea that somehow you can use your Reaping Scythe of Death Strike and the target only has a black eye after it is all over seems rather unsatisfying.

I agree that such results are unsatisfying.

Umbran said:
Simple variation #1 - however lawless the area is (and probably because it is so lawless) the local tavern/drinking establishments have a standard "no weapons" rule. Get caught with one, you get tossed out, possibly banned form it and other establishments, and so on. So, the players are forced to largely fight without the implements many of their powers depend upon.

Isn't that pretty much what I suggested in my first post?

maddman75 · Dec 7, 2009

Here's what I would do. Treat the brawl as a skill challenge. They can roll intimidate to keep people off of them, make basic attacks to knock people out, athletics to swing from chandaliers, stealth to hide under tables, etc.

Stoat · Dec 7, 2009

maddman75 said:
Here's what I would do. Treat the brawl as a skill challenge. They can roll intimidate to keep people off of them, make basic attacks to knock people out, athletics to swing from chandaliers, stealth to hide under tables, etc.

Maddman beat me to it. What you're describing is a skill challenge. Failure means the PC's are knocked out. Success means they win the fight, escape the bar, etc. etc.

Problem is, the players are going to want to fight it out using the combat rules. It's a natural instinct, and I know enough of your players to know that's where they'll want to go.

A skill challenge (a) gets you away from the battlemat and (b) helps alleviate the problem Umbran pointed out re: the disparity between martial and other characters. It'll probably move faster too.

Assuming you went that way, I'd be ready to run it as a straight combat if that's how the PC's wanted to do it. I'd figure out some consequence that would arise if they went to the battlemat, and I'd communicate it to them clearly. Something like, "right now, this is a nonlethal barroom brawl. I'm running it as a skill challenge. If you want to fight it out on the battlemat we can, but (a) you risk death and (b) you'll be marked as dangerous killers by the town guard."

Also, I've got a nice grubby bar map that I can email you.

Umbran · Dec 7, 2009

ExploderWizard said:
Isn't that pretty much what I suggested in my first post?

Yes, but to me you seemed to be spending more energy arguing against unarmed combat in general, so I chose to bring the idea back to the fore.

Gort · Dec 7, 2009

I'd hope that if I told my players "the guy to your left picks up a stool and tries to bash you over the head with it", the response would be something like "I grab my tankard and smash him in the face!" rather than "I draw my +3 flaming fullblade".

If they do the latter, just remind them of the situation gently. "I'm sorry? You're in a bar fight. What do you do?" Hopefully that should sort out any confusion.

A 4e Bar Fight...how to do it?

Nebulous

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ExploderWizard

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Umbran

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ExploderWizard

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Umbran

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ExploderWizard

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maddman75

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Stoat

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Umbran

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Gort

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