Twilight, the Uncertain Knight, and the Distressed Damsel

Okay, in another thread Umbran suggested that I look into the series Twilight (which my wife and daughters love), because apparently he and some others (assuming they were being serious, and I can't really know just from a sentence or two on the internet) think there is something wrong with it, or at disturbing about it, at least in part.

And I'm gonna be doing my own investigation into the matter, but from what I can tell, at least preliminarily, the most common objections seem to be centered around the fact that the relationship between the boy and girl is considered abusive or repressive. (Keep in mind folks that I know nothing about this series and have tried my dead-level best to avoid it, because it's a chick thing, and me and most chick things aren't usually all that simpatico. So I'm operating in the dark here.)

Still, I'd like to know what other people's opinions are around here on this matter because I'm assuming that quite a few folks on a site like this will have opinions one way or another. So if you have an opinion on whether Twilight is good, bad, neutral, silly, corrupting, edifying, or whatever the case, then let me know. I'd appreciate a little detail in order to flesh out the context of what you're saying, but that's up to you.

I'm just soliciting opinions and ideas here. As well as getting some idea of what maybe I should be investigating and what that might mean.

Of course you don't have to limit your comments to those subjects specifically, but that's what I've run across thus far.

Through a slightly wider lens another thing it made me think about is the Romantic Ideal itself. (I got nothing against romance folks, I like some of the aspects of it a'lot, historical and current, and think it has done Western and other societies a lot of good, as well as some real harm.)


But this whole range of subject matter has made me think about these things in regards to Romance:

1. When and how is Romance too self-sacrificial?

2. When and how is Romance too reckless?

3. When and how is Romance too self-absorbed and abusive?

4. When is Romance liberating (in a good sense), and in what ways?

5. How do you balance out Romance to make it both useful and advantageous to everyone involved?


So, if you got some opinions then have at it...
And you don't have to limit yourself to my exact lines of inquiry, but I am interested in your opinions about what I asked.

The National Domestic Violence Hotline has some thoughts on what makes an abusive relationship.

Adults, with a well-developed and robust sense of self, can read about any relationships they like - sink into the fiction, revel in it, and come back up unscathed. Kids, who are still developing their sense of self, ought to have some guidance.

Adults, with a well-developed and robust sense of self, can read about any relationships they like - sink into the fiction, revel in it, and come back up unscathed. Kids, who are still developing their sense of self, ought to have some guidance.

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I couldn't and wouldn't argue against that.

It's a very popular fantasy series primarily attractive to girls. And boy geeks tend to bash it because of that fact (not saying Umbran is doing that - just in general). At least, the extreme negative reaction of many boy geeks sure looks like a territorial geek thing to me.

There is nothing in the Twilight books worse than what young boys routinely read in fantasy and sci-fi. In fact, there is probably worse in some books routinely read my male teens. Heck, what was I doing reading Jack L. Chalker's weird sexually charged novels as a teen? It was marketed to my age, but was not appropriate to my age, and nobody was throwing a fit over it like I see some throwing a fit over the relatively tame Twilight books.

In fact, IMHO, there is nothing worse in Twilight than what you would likely find in the Star Wars series, if you thought about it. Boy with a crush on his sister hunted by their genocidal father while teaming up with a murderous space pirate and dragging some slave androids along, while shoved into danger by an old man with a death wish who has been spying on him his whole life? Is that really "better" than the stuff you find in Twilight?

I haven't read them, nor has my wife, so I have no direct experience. Best I've got is a female friend who described the movie version of the guy as "Creepier than Anakin in Clones."

That's pretty creepy.

Mistwell said:

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There is nothing in the Twilight books worse than what young boys routinely read in fantasy and sci-fi. In fact, there is probably worse in some books routinely read my male teens. Heck, what was I doing reading Jack L. Chalker's weird sexually charged novels as a teen? It was marketed to my age, but was not appropriate to my age, and nobody was throwing a fit over it like I see some throwing a fit over the relatively tame Twilight books.

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I have not read or seen any of the Twilight stuff but I would be very surprised if the above was not true. It strikes me of another twist on books/games/tv etc causes x where x is mostly violence but could be a few other things. The books are a small part of the teenagers life (and if it not then what are the parents doing?) and most peoples preceptions of how relationships work come from seeing their parents relantionships and those of the parents of their friends.

Mistwell said:

And boy geeks tend to bash it because of that fact (not saying Umbran is doing that - just in general). At least, the extreme negative reaction of many boy geeks sure looks like a territorial geek thing to me.

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I bash it because the writing is sub-par (imho) and the relationships are abusive, but portrayed as positive.

It was marketed to my age, but was not appropriate to my age, and nobody was throwing a fit over it like I see some throwing a fit over the relatively tame Twilight books.

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True, but Chalker didn't have anything like the popularity or marketing that Twilight does. Perhaps the difference lies not in the content, but in the prevalence?

In fact, IMHO, there is nothing worse in Twilight than what you would likely find in the Star Wars series, if you thought about it.

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Well, let's think about if for a moment, then....

Boy with a crush on his sister hunted by their genocidal father while teaming up with a murderous space pirate and dragging some slave androids along, while shoved into danger by an old man with a death wish who has been spying on him his whole life? Is that really "better" than the stuff you find in Twilight?

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Ah, but you see, you are casting the broad plotline into language that reads like these are negative themes. But what about the specific events in the story?

For example, in the Twilight books...

Boy forces himself on girl (okay, it's YA, so he forces kisses on her). She fights back, and breaks her hand in the process. Boy drives girl home. Girl explains to her Dad how her hand got broken. Dad congratulates boy, and makes point to girl that maybe this will teach her not to fight back in the future.

Or maybe this...

Different boy is going away for a while. Boy locks girl in basement while he is gone, because she is so stupid and clumsy she might get killed while he's away, and he loves her so much he could not bear to lose her. Girl takes this as a good thing, and spends time in basement musing on how much boy must really and truly love her to take care of her so...

To put it in context since Umbran left the context out on purpouse. The punch/kiss. The boy had a crush on her and wanted her to realize that she loved him to and that she didn't need to be turned into a vampire to find someone to love her. Her father was glad that Jake kissed her, since he really didn't like her boyfriend and Jake was close enough to be part of the family.

Dad congratulates boy, and makes point to girl that maybe this will teach her not to fight back in the future.

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, her dad apologized for not teaching her how to hit someone properly and told her that he wanted her to always be able to defend herself.

Different boy is going away for a while. Boy locks girl in basement while he is gone, because she is so stupid and clumsy she might get killed while he's away, and he loves her so much he could not bear to lose her. Girl takes this as a good thing, and spends time in basement musing on how much boy must really and truly love her to take care of her so...

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Completely and utterly out of context. He was trying to keep her away from a werewolf. Werewolfs having incredible anger control problems, in fact the head werewolf had lost control for less than a second and darn near ripped of his fiance's face (the injuries were so bad people thought she was mauled by a bear). The werewolf in question had been one for less than 3 months, and seemed to lose control of his anger and almost shift fairly often whenever he talked to Bella.

I would also say that calling a sleepover with one of your best-friends where you sleep in a bedroom (on the third floor) being locked in a basement is just a little bit off . Geek rage for the win I suppouse. There are legitimate gripes to be had, no need to make stuff up.

Shalimar said:

Geek rage for the win I suppouse. There are legitimate gripes to be had, no need to make stuff up.

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I don't think he's making things up, but rather seeing them from a different perspective.

I haven't read the books myself, but many of my friends have, and more than a few of them have come to the same conclusions as Umbran and find the books distasteful as a result.

We could find plenty of other examples in more "male" oriented fantasy fiction as well, and I've read a lot of that . . . and I turned out okay . . . (I think) . . . so I don't worry about it much.

But it's good to be aware of what you're kids are reading, if possible, so you can discuss these types of things with them.

I dunno if there's anything majorly wrong with it.

But it is fantasy that is popular with teen girls, and that's an audience which the mostly male scfi/fantasy crowd loves to denigrate (imo, they are still nursing grudges from high school).

The heroine is a little bit passive for my tastes, but other than that I don't think there's anything really negative there.

As far as romance goes, at least everyone in Twilight is smarter than the people in Romeo and Juliet, and we force kids to read R+J in school.