LEB Discussion Thread '10

Mezegis · Jun 28, 2010

I use CoCo because IC doesn't work from my work comp, and I do 80% of my posting from here (work). Sofar no one has had an issue with it.

renau1g · Jun 28, 2010

Mezegis said:
In transitioning to the new enwiki site, Ryda’s character sheet got severely messed up, both in formatting, and since I needed to use an old version dredged up from the bowels in the enworld wiki, I lost my 2nd approval (Email came from Michael Sawi, whomever that is on the boards) I hadn’t actually noticed until now, when I have to level her up.

My question is, since I’m pretty much going to have to remake her, should I make her at level 4, submit her for approval, and then level her up and resubmit her, or just build her for level 5?

Just do it for level 5, we'll review the whole thing. TwoHeadsBarking is who your secodn approval was from.

twilsemail said:
I'd just like to toss out the opinion that those items are the most optimal choices for most PCs. I don't particularly think that most optimal = Best. I mean it's oten the best, depending on how much focus there is on RP vs. Challenge and the like.

I hope that didn't come off as too preachy.

Difference in viewpoint I suppose. Everyone's job in a fight, no matter role, is to kill the bad guys right? (well except pacifist clerics) These help you kill faster and therefore spend less time fighting and more time RP'ing

But yes they are the most optimal items for most PCs.

Velmont · Jun 28, 2010

evilbob said:
Very true.

Which is why you hold an orb of Nimble Thoughts in your off-hand, since it gives a static bonus - and an encounter power - and doesn't require you to cast through it to use either. Only good for Int-based characters, though - others should find a different property-based off-hand item.

Have I mentioned properties > daily item powers?

One good for anyone item to wield in your off-hand: Rhythm Blade. Anyone can wield a dagger, and that one have a property equivalent to a small shield. To get more defense, it is great, and you never need to upgrade the dagger once you have it.

evilbob · Jun 28, 2010

Mezegis said:
My question is, since I’m pretty much going to have to remake her, should I make her at level 4, submit her for approval, and then level her up and resubmit her, or just build her for level 5?

My understanding is that rebuild for level 5 is ok. I think if you want to change race or class you may need a proposal or something, but otherwise you get a free overhaul for your first level anyway so that should be ok.

You may want to include something explaining the original level 4 approvals just to have a record of that.

Edit: Ninja'd by R1 after leaving the post up for over 6 hrs again...

renau1g · Jun 28, 2010

Ha! I never get to do that to anyone...

Antithetist · Jul 1, 2010

Apologies guys, I think this was discussed before (or maybe it was over in L4W? Dunno), but now I can't find it, and the wiki doesn't include any mention of it in houserules. So: Superior Implement Training feats. Do we allow these? They seem like real no-brainer gimme feats for any character who can use them, much like the Expertise feats which were houseruled into a free bonus for precisely that reason. I haven't looked too closely at the others yet, but I'm thinking here primarily of the Accurate implements that just give you a flat +1, thus basically just taking on the role of an extra Expertise feat.

If, as I rather suspect, these are disallowed, then I guess that should be added to the houserules page on the wiki, right?

EDIT: Another implement question: say that I'm a Wizard, and I pick Orb of Deception for my Arcane Implement Mastery. Then I buy a basic nonmagical orb, which I wield in my off-hand, and a Staff of Ruin, which is held in my mainhand. Then I use an Illusion power, applying my Staff of Ruin's enhancement bonus to it - it misses. Now, can I use my Orb of Deception power, even though I didn't use an Orb to make the attack? By the letter of the rules it looks like I can - 'you must wield an orb to benefit from this feature', okay, I'm wielding an orb, no problem right? But I've also seen rulings that you can never benefit from two different implements on the same attack - does this fall under that? My instinct says no, since the Orb isn't directly benefiting the attack itself, it's just enabling the use of a seperate power which also happens to interact with the attack. Am I right about that?

renau1g · Jul 2, 2010

Superior Implements are allowed, just as superior weapons. I don't think they're gimme feats, but they are very good feats, just like most weapon users will want to grab a bigger weapon.

re: the orb/staff, I'd say that the Orb is a different power, therefore you could use the orb after missing with the staff, but the power would need to be channeled through the orb, losing the Staff's benefits

evilbob · Jul 2, 2010

Superior implements are in addition to expertise feats; therefore they are separate and intended to be stacked. Nothing has been said to my knowledge about disallowing superior implement feats in L4W or LEB. Yes, they are so good that they are no-brainers, just like expertise feats.

I haven't looked up the description for the orb you listed but if only requires wielding then you only have to wield it. If it says it only effects an attack cast through this orb then you have to cast through it. Sorry that's stating the obvious but I think it really is that simple.

Antithetist · Jul 2, 2010

renau1g said:
re: the orb/staff, I'd say that the Orb is a different power, therefore you could use the orb after missing with the staff, but the power would need to be channeled through the orb, losing the Staff's benefits

Hmm. This makes a kind of logical sense, but I'm not sure that the RAW supports it. Nothing in the Orb of Deception power description states that you actually have to use the Orb with the power. For easy reference:

Orb of Deception
Encounter
Free Action
Trigger: When you miss an enemy with a wizard illusion power
Effect: Choose another enemy within 3 squares of the missed target. The chosen enemy cannot also be a target of the original attack. Repeat the attack against this new target, with a bonus to the attack roll equal to your Charisma modifier.
Requirement: You must wield an orb to benefit from this feature.

evilbob's thoughts pretty much mirror my own, that since nothing says that the power (either the original miss or the retry) has to be channeled through the orb, and since you can wield an implement in each hand, there's nothing to stop this unless there's a seperate ruling somewhere that bears upon it. It is, however, some rather dubious cheese, so I thought I should run it by people before I went ahead and included it in a character.

Good to know about Superior Implements. Looks like I'll have to updated my wishlists...

evilbob · Jul 2, 2010

Yeah, I'd say you're pretty safe (at least insofar as how I see the rules, keeping in mind I'm not a judge). The requirement says you have to wield it, but it does not say in the trigger "illusion wizard powers cast through this orb miss", just "when you miss". That's not to say that given the next batch of errata it won't get changed (they've been updating a lot of orbs that way), but unless it gets changed, I think you're good.

My wizard does the same thing, btw: Accurate Staff of Ruin + Orb of Nimble Thoughts in the off-hand.