LEB Discussion Thread '10

twilsemail · Jul 7, 2010

renau1g said:
In previous editions a MM could take out a kobold or goblin with one shot, they missed "capturing" this feel of the older edition.

There are hundreds of weak enemies, up to level 34 even, that can be one-shotted by this spell now.

If you're really looking for a way to stack all sorts of damage on there, ShadarKai>Reaper's Touch>Staff of (gives +1d6 damage on melee) = auto-damage with a roll.

Velmont · Jul 7, 2010

The old magic missile could do, let's say, 2d4 (average 5) + Int (4) + Weapon Focus: Staff (1), for a total of 10 damage, and you have around 50% chance to hit, so during a combat, it is a an average of 5 damage per rounds.

The new MM now deals 2 + Int (4) + Weapon Focus: Staff (1), a total of 7 damage, for an average of 7 damage per round.

Overall, the new MM damage output is better, but you will never critic. Great spell to finish up monster, kill automatically minions (but when there is a lot, I would prefer multi-target or area power).

I think they just gave back the flavor of the old good magic missile. Well, almost, you don't have many missile to shot to different enemies, it will always be 1.

twilsemail · Jul 7, 2010

Velmont said:
The old magic missile could do, let's say, 2d4 (average 5) + Int (4) + Weapon Focus: Staff (1), for a total of 10 damage, and you have around 50% chance to hit, so during a combat, it is a an average of 5 damage per rounds.

The new MM now deals 2 + Int (4) + Weapon Focus: Staff (1), a total of 7 damage, for an average of 7 damage per round.

Overall, the new MM damage output is better, but you will never critic. Great spell to finish up monster, kill automatically minions (but when there is a lot, I would prefer multi-target or area power).

I think they just gave back the flavor of the old good magic missile. Well, almost, you don't have many missile to shot to different enemies, it will always be 1.

As R1 said, you could add all kinds of modifiers to the old MM becuase of the damage roll. Removing the damage roll removed a lot of the supplemental damage from items and the like.

The current MM only does 2 + Int + Enh (No WF, there's no roll).

I still like the new one better, but there will be a heck of a lot less damage coming from it now.

renau1g · Jul 7, 2010

Yeah don't forget Eyes of the Eagle or whatever that item that grants +2 item bonus to damage rolls for RBA's which now doesn't work.

Minion auto-kill is not enough of a use of a power IMO and it only works if your DM tells you they're minions. I'd still take Cloud of Daggers (which is essentially auto-kill minion) over this or chilling cloud or winged horde... yeah what's next iterative attacks? Save vs. Death? My point I guess is that this is a fairly big shift in a power that's been around since the start of the game...handled through errata. This isn't an errata, this is a new power. This should have been in essentials at the very least.

Oh, and to hit is closer to 60% or so as you should be hitting at least on a 10, but realistically you are hitting on an 8 as the math doesn't include special modifiers (CA, Taclord bonuses, Action Surge, etc) Actually a human (or half-elf, or revenant (human)) can likely hit on a 2 with their AP if there's a taclord granting +2 to hit (at least), +2 from CA, +3 from Action surge = +7 bonus to normal roll, heck add Veteran's Armor and it's now +8 to the roll.

ShadarKai>Reaper's Touch>Staff of (gives +1d6 damage on melee) = auto-damage with a roll. <- one corner case, where before every race could do it.

evilbob · Jul 7, 2010

I'm with r1 on this one.

It seems like when the PHB was first published, an auto-kill minion / auto-damage spell was a bit scary to them. Now they know that 1) cloud of daggers already does this, 2) no one cares because they still have better options.

It's better not to look at this at level 1, but rather level "lots." At high levels, the stacking effects to damage rolls are substantial: this one gives 5 + int + enhancement, maximum. You're giving up a significant amount of damage for an auto-hit, and again: cloud of daggers does Wis damage automatically anyway already.

The only nice thing is still the basic ranged attack, so maybe a warlord could cause you to auto-kill a boss right before its turn came up... But that's still a corner case. As a general "you only get two at-wills" at-will spell, its utility is far outclassed by other spells.

Of course, this is all really still academic because I don't think anyone was really taking MM in the first place.

evilbob · Jul 7, 2010

Wait - isn't there already a cold-power wizard at-will that does Int auto-damage over an area?

Velmont · Jul 7, 2010

Nope, it need to roll vs Fort.

Luinnar · Jul 7, 2010

Yeah Chilling Cloud you do not roll damage, but you still roll vs fort. Burst 1 and -2 to attack rolls and only hits enemys though, which is nice. (Psychic Lock makes it worthless at Paragon though, because of Winged Horde).

evilbob · Jul 7, 2010

Thanks for reminding me! Yeah, I think the extremely low damage and vs. Fort nature of the thing always kept me from it (I find vs. Fort to be almost as bad as vs. AC with implement powers).

Luinnar · Jul 7, 2010

evilbob said:
Thanks for reminding me! Yeah, I think the extremely low damage and vs. Fort nature of the thing always kept me from it (I find vs. Fort to be almost as bad as vs. AC with implement powers).

I retrained Mythra in it, I'll see how it goes. I had Illusory Ambush, but I thought less damage & vs fort was worth it for AOE. (plus it never hit that stupid Dwarf we fought

). Too bad it can't be enlarged.

Mythra is more control + summon anyway, rather than damage (I have a Sorcerer in L4W, so I wanted something different than just a pure damage character).