How to make treasure more interesting, or, I miss Treasure Types A-Z!

Mercurius · Jan 4, 2010

Two things, really:

1) 4ed Magic Items Suck: I've come to the same conclusion that a disproportionately large number of DMs seem to come to, that 4ed magic items suck. I'm not exactly sure why--I think it is a combination of factors, the gestalt of which is not good. On one hand I don't have the problem with being able to buy a +2 sword or, as a player, not worrying that the DM will provide an appropriate high level version of your exotic weapon of choice at the appropriate time (e.g. a fullblade), that you can just spend cash and level it up yourself. On the other hand, it takes some of the fun out of things--the surprise of a new magic item. Now when a magic item is found, the party that I run immediately figures out whether anyone can use it and, if not, it is thrown in the "to sell" part of the party Portable Hole. Then of course there is the items themselves, which seem very underwhelming: like paragon level magic items that let you do one thing per day. What's the point of that?

2) A Lack of Randomness: In particular, I miss random magic item tables and the old Treasure Types A-Z! There is something fun about rolling up treasure right after the encounter; I know, you're supposed to pre-plan treasure parcels so everything is balanced and makes "verisimilitudinous" sense, but rolling treasure is fun, at least for me as the DM because it is both nice to find surprises as the DM, and a bit of randomness inspires creativity, again, at least for me.

So the larger question is, how to bring the magic back to treasure? Anyone else having this problem?

AllisterH · Jan 4, 2010

1. Use the inherent bonuses from DMG2

2. Simply create a random table for all treasures (a.k.a if you use a wish list, only 5% of treasure will be what the players WANTED).

3. Create a backstory for the items you do hand out and combine 2-4 items into one item OR upgrade the action AND recharge of each item "e.g. if the item has a daily power, it becomes an encounter power. If it requires a minor action to use, it becomes a free action to use"

4. Eliminate the ability of PCs to buy magic items.

Done and you will get back the feel of 1e/2e random magic item system.

Tuft · Jan 4, 2010

Well, the problem is kind of built into the system itself. In order to make the PC:s power curve predictable and... well, even more predictable, the items are both limited and very specific. No sudden "hey look, I can fly" or "hey look, I can walk through walls" surprising the DM (or scenario writers). I would not be surprised if I found an item that's only usable by an one-legged pirate dragonborn with a squint... but only if he multiclassed into ninja

The narrowness makes wish-listing and/or buying necessary. How fun is it to get just what in WoW would be called "vendor trash"? (A more accurate name than "treasure", indeed!) And with a lousy pay from the vendor? It's like being eight years old and only getting home-knitted socks and sweaters for Christmas...

My DM soon grew tired of handling wish-lists - especially as everybody more or less had to rewrite their lists as soon as they got one of their items, as the gain of one item made the wish for another superfluous due to overlapping functions.

What we got instead was that items disenchanted at 100% value instead of the RAW 20% - enabling us to create equal value items. Having a wish-list meant that we got the things we wanted anyway, so why go the round-about way instead of cutting to the chase and making the items ourselves? At least that way those that invested in item creation rituals got some mileage and some role-play out of them.

AllisterH · Jan 4, 2010

I'm curious about something Tuft.

When I hear the word wishlist, I thought it was understood that not EVERYTHING the players wanted would be gained. It would be just things that the players WISHED for and that the DM MIGHT give you.

That's why it's called a WISHLIST.

However, not only from you but others seem to think that the wishlist means EVERYTHING on it has to be put into treasure parcels.

As an aside, allowing for 100% raw disenchanting is the one thing you DO NOT want to do if you want the feel of 1e/2e magic items since the only reason people remember those magical items is that we HAD to use them since you couldn't trade them in for more specific items.

Tuft · Jan 4, 2010

AllisterH said:
I'm curious about something Tuft.

When I hear the word wishlist, I thought it was understood that not EVERYTHING the players wanted would be gained. It would be just things that the players WISHED for and that the DM MIGHT give you.

That's why it's called a WISHLIST.

However, not only from you but others seem to think that the wishlist means EVERYTHING on it has to be put into treasure parcels.

Of course you won't get everything on the list.

That's why you put four-five items that does approximately the same thing on your list, to improve the odds.

Assume that you are a charisma-based character interested in Diplomacy. Then you wish for the two-three head slot items, and the neck slot item, and the wondrous item that boosts diplomacy - and put all of these on your list.

But when you get one of those above, the others become superfluous since they will not stack, and thus have to be immediately removed from your list.

Each character might pursue three or four such goals with their wish-lists, with the added complexity of some items fulfilling multiple goals at once...

And then you have the little snag of what happens when an item appears that is listed on the wish-list of more than one player. Who gets it? Picking the wrong recipient might mean that one gets two of their picks, and another none...

I think we had played about 7 level of or 4E campaign (we are now at level 20) when our DM had just about enough and instituted the 100% disenchant rule above.

As an aside, allowing for 100% raw disenchanting is the one thing you DO NOT want to do if you want the feel of 1e/2e magic items since the only reason people remember those magical items is that we HAD to use them since you couldn't trade them in for more specific items.

Well, it was more of "since it is impossible to use random items, we'll do just the opposite" reaction, I think.