Best System for a West Marches Game?

Raven Crowking · Jan 5, 2010

Wik said:
But there seems to be a lot going against it - the flatter power curve springs to mind. The problem I see is a character with no experience whatsoever could thereotically adventure with a group of seasoned characters and there'd be little to differentiate them. Or, to put the same problem in a different light, it'd mean that the flatter power curve also applies to the various zones in game - there is less to differentiate my ECL 1 zone from my ECL 3 zone. Or am I reading too much into this?

This is actually such a serious advantage that I am amazed you are listing it as a "con" (rather than "pro").

In a West Marches type game, you want the PCs to be able to swap out into various adventuring parties. A flatter power curve makes this work better.

In a West Marches type game, you want your design work to remain viable for longer. A flatter power curve makes this work better, too.

In a not-so-distant RCFG game, the party went through two dungeon levels (20+ encounter areas each) with only one fatality, and they referred to it as a "meat grinder". Players always find a way to over-extend themselves. You shouldn't worry that your ECL 3+ areas aren't more challenging than your ECL 1 areas. The players will still see the difference, I assure you!

RC

Wik · Jan 5, 2010

I guess what I'm getting at is the competitive angle of a WM game. If I can adventure for a dozen sessions (which may be up to half a year in real life) and some new guy can come in and play with me and I'm only kind of better, it sort of detracts my work (at least how I see it).

Whereas, in 3.5, for example, by that time I'd be 3rd or 4th level - and everyone can see the difference between a 4th and a 1st level character.

The more I think about it, though, the more I realize you're probably right... and that were one to use Savage Worlds, there'd need to be a cap on attributes and skills at game start (say, 1d8).

Raven Crowking · Jan 5, 2010

In a WM-type game, though, it is your knowledge and experience within the campaign milieu that will be the critical difference between you and the noob, not the statistical difference. Information in such a setting is the real treasure.....and the real measure of power!

coyote6 · Jan 5, 2010

You could make up extra Edges, too, that are only available to Seasoned or higher characters.

Or even Edges that have prereqs like, "Visited the Spring of a Thousand Flowers in the Trollgap Woods and survived" or "Explored the Hall of the Barrow Kings" -- things that are specific to your setting, that only an experienced character could qualify for. Such things would also serve as carrots to get players exploring.

JoeGKushner · Jan 5, 2010

Given the game systems you list, and my own familiarity with some of them, I think Warhammer 2nd ed might be the best one.

While there is a climb in power, it's not as radical as D&D's in virtually any edition. It can't be because of you run it as is with ye old random career, the players don't start off equal, but generally have equality in survivability. This allows 'old pros' and young 'uns to hang out. Perhaps customizing the starting career chart to those you'd think might be appropriate. Although mind you, I'm always reminded of what a friend of mine used to love about those charts, "that's what you used to do. You're a new man now!"

In addition, because a lot of the game isn't XP for combat (unless I'm way misremembering here), there is motivation to do other things. The game is also not magic item heavy, although there are a ton of great magic items and whole books devoted to the magical side of things.

The monster system is also simple enough to gank stuff out of the table top if you have the miniatures.

Wik said:
These are all great replies! I'll need to go into them in more detail, but it'll have to be later. For now, though, some quick answers:

1) JGK: Current games I have access to are 4E, 3.5E (but NO. I refuse to GM it again), Earthdawn 1e and 3e, Savage Worlds, Shadowrun (also a NO), Eldritch Role-playing (maybe?), Serenity (some possibilities there...), Basic Role-Playing (ie, Call of Cthulu), 2e D&D, BECMI D&D, d6 Space, d6 Fantasy, d6 Adventure, d20 Modern, WFRP 2e, and a bunch of d20 variants... and maybe half a dozen smaller games that I've forgotten I own. I'd be most comfortable running the d6 system, but I'm thinking there isn't enough to differentiate PCs in ability unless I fully open the Character Generation system to the players... which will result in a huge power differential between PCs (one of the faults of the new d6 system). A redesign on my end could help, but I don't know if the system meshes well with a WM game (d6 is very much a heroic game...)

For what it's worth, I'm asking this question more because I'm designing a game for the RPG design contest with the goal of making the "perfect" WM system, and I want to see what games people recommend so I can see what are the advantages for each (and, because one of these days, I will run a WM game!)

S'mon: I was seeing that possibility with 4e, too - weaken the monsters, and then just use more of them! And I was planning on losing magic items almost entirely, and using a gear list of my own creation. There would have to be some serious house-ruling for D&D... I'd also limit the number of books used, and keep that limit in place throughout (so you're not punished for coming into the game earlier, when there are fewer options open - every player has the same options available).

As for Savage Worlds, I know I'd have to use the Dungeons and Savages PDF (so good!). But there seems to be a lot going against it - the flatter power curve springs to mind. The problem I see is a character with no experience whatsoever could thereotically adventure with a group of seasoned characters and there'd be little to differentiate them. Or, to put the same problem in a different light, it'd mean that the flatter power curve also applies to the various zones in game - there is less to differentiate my ECL 1 zone from my ECL 3 zone. Or am I reading too much into this? It could be because I haven't played too much Savage Worlds...

Tav_Behemoth · Jan 5, 2010

The New York Red Box group currently runs two long-standing West Marches D&D games; Eric's uses the titular Red Box Basic from 1981, while mine is using the OD&D 1974 rules. We talk about lessons from these campaigns in the forums on that site, and also on the Mule Abides blog in my sig.

Ditto the wise Raven Crowking on the huge importance of information, if only to know where to go for maximal fun and profit. My personal feeling is that West Marches games work best in systems where information-driven planning confers a direct benefit to survival (e.g. you know which Vancian spells to prepare). I've been frustrated with the feeling that a fight in 4E that the PCs are totally prepared for plays out almost identically to one that catches them by surprise, but YMMV.

An advantage of using old-school D&D is that things like the tables in the AD&D DMG and Kellri's free Old School Encounters Reference make this style of play tons easier. However, I'm gearing up to run a West Marches-style game using Rogue Trader; my feeling is that it'll be possible but more work without the framework that all those lovely random tables provide. I'll let y'all know how the experiment turns out once it's underway!

teach · Sep 2, 2011

Some ways that I've made 4E work within the mindset of a West Marches game.

1. Make sure there are plenty of potions of healing. That way if they are without a leader, they can still survive.
2. Use some of the odder magical items, like potions, salves and the such that players can use after they've done some recon. These make great treasure as well. And then reward them for using them. I also tend to give a bonus to XP if they are prepared for a battle rather than just blundering into it.
3. Use lots of minions. Lots of them. Keeps the combats quicker. Have them come in waves to draw out the battles and keep areas blasts for ending a combat in one shot.
4. Have them fight "random" wilderness combats versus 1 enemy and 2 minions. These will usually be pretty quick, but unless they are being ultra careful, I'll usually give the enemies a sneak attack round against the party. These usually last only 20 minutes or so, but keep the party on their toes.
5. Give out basic +1 magic items, but make them sound interesting. A +1 longsword made out of black steel, with a faded symbol inlaid in the hilt makes for a pretty interesting item. (I always get the question, "what's the symbol?" and then I give a cryptic answer and the player spends the next three adventures trying to figure out what the symbol means). Then, tell the player, "you can tell there is more to this item, but you are not sure how to unlock it." How do they unlock the additional power? Why, by picking the magic item that fits their character build between sessions of course! This way, I can control a bit of how the magic items are handed out, but the players get to have the item that they need for their build.

And now, the new Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium will have better rules for henchmen and hirelings, so if you every run into problems with not enough players, you'll have a way to work around it.

I really think 4e is a great system for this type of play, due to the incredible ease with which to create an encounter and an adventure.

Hope this helps anyone who has been thinking about playing a 4E style west marches campaign.

Iron Sky · Sep 2, 2011

I tried running a WM style game in 4e and it fizzled. That might be due to our group's mindset however, the system itself was working ok.

Basically, after a few forays into the wilds where they fought a few monsters that I rolled no loot for (Rules Compendium's random loot generator), they ended up broke and starving and spent a week in town doing menial tasks to get enough money for more food to go out again.

They got annoyed with the prices of things in town (I marked common goods things up 5x since there was only a single tavern/shop in town) and decided they were just going to make their own town using some refugees they rescued as the townsfolk. Soon the game wasn't West Marches - Exploration, Adventure, Danger!, it was West Marches - How to Design, Populate, and Create a Self-sustaining Fortified Village in the Wilderness!

Dunno, maybe we'll play again. The group's favorite part was that I had a caravan come through every month (from which they could buy cheap goods/rare items) and each time it came, a new shop set up in town as well as a few scenery buildings showing up to give it the feeling of a frontier boom-town like it was.

The downside of 4e is the lack of long-term effects - once the group can afford enough food, there's no real reason to ever go back to town except to "turn in quests".

Patryn of Elvenshae · Sep 3, 2011

I think I may have found your problem ...

Iron Sky said:
... no loot ...

... menial tasks ...

... marked common goods things up 5x ...

Clyde Starr · Jun 20, 2017

I've never found 4e combat to take too long...I can run a complete battle between 15 players, and an equal number of enemies in under 2 hrs(of equal EL)....smaller groups in 45 mins or so. Secret is to make sure players pay attention, so they know what's going on when their turn comes up, and don't give in to decision paralysis. If they aren't ready, they hold their action, move on.

I've run and played since 1978, so I didn't start with 4e, but I do love the elegance of the system. If you run it using the built in abstraction, it can be an olde school style game like OD&D

I'd recommend4e for any Sandbox/on the fly gaming for several reasons

Quick down and dirty monsters (I have the Adventure Tools offline edition, and Character Builder) with varied roles so you can have a mixed group that works together and makes some sense. Higher HPs at lower levels, so accidental death of 'disposable characters' doesn't deter you (but with very good lethality still built in, just takes a couple rounds to kill/run away now)

Best System for a West Marches Game?

Raven Crowking

First Post

Wik

First Post

Raven Crowking

First Post

coyote6

Adventurer

JoeGKushner

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Tav_Behemoth

First Post

teach

First Post

Iron Sky

Procedurally Generated

Patryn of Elvenshae

First Post

Clyde Starr

First Post

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