Powers and abilities that grant a bonus after a Roll

mattcolville · Jan 5, 2010

This is one of those questions I don't even know where to look for an answer to.

There are abilities like Iron Mind where you get a bonus to your defenses and can do it after the GM hits you, or the Elven Accuracy reroll which you can use after you missed.

Is the expectation there that you, the player, know how much you missed by? Or were hit by? Or are you expected to make the decision about using your power based solely on "you missed" or "you're hit?"

Mort_Q · Jan 5, 2010

The DM's approach varies quite a bit, and thus the expectations. These types of powers are nearly useless if the DM doesn't give any feedback or hints, in my opinion.

Infiniti2000 · Jan 5, 2010

Check out the Wand of Accuracy thread.

Danceofmasks · Jan 5, 2010

Well, since the procedure of attacking is meant to be:
Roll, add bonuses, if it equals or exceeds defense it's a hit.
Rules don't say exactly how this is done at the table.

So it seems to work best for me when ('cos it resolves quickly at the table):

A player rolls, declares a total, and the DM says if it hits.
In exactly the same way, the DM rolls (behind the screen or not depending on how meta the players get), declares a total, and the player says if it hit.

This method makes powers like shield much more precise ... you use it when you know it will negate a hit.
It hurts attack roll modifying powers a little, since you know if you hit or miss, but not by how much.
But you can usually guess correctly ... "29 didn't hit?! Oh dang ... I'll use this power to lower his defense by 4"

DracoSuave · Jan 6, 2010

And in some cases, it doesn't matter. Elven Accuracy doesn't give you a bonus to an existing roll, it's just a straight up reroll.

But, DMG advice (which is not the same as Rules) is that everything like that is up and up on the table. Normal people being attacked usually have an vague idea of how close they came to getting damaged by it... they know if it was 'he hit the barn behind me' or 'he nicked my cheek, that jerk!' so knowing what they rolled to hit you isn't completely out of the ballpark in terms of versimiliatude for superheroic fantasy ubermenschen.

Camelot · Jan 6, 2010

I let my players determine monster defenses as the game goes on using a whiteboard. When they miss with an 11, they write down AC: 12+. Then they hit with 19, so they change it to AC: 12-19. It continues to get narrowed down this way, so they don't have to keep asking me if it hits or not. Of course, it is up to them if they want to do it or not, but I'm not going to do it for them. =)

As for the DM's attack rolls, I don't tell them any values in case they freak out at really high numbers, but if they want to use such a power and I know it will have no effect, I simply tell them to save it. I don't try to disguise it, I just let them know that it won't help so they don't waste the power.

N0Man · Jan 6, 2010

I think the answer is to go with the option that the group finds fair and fun. It's just not very fun to have this conversation with your DM:

DM: "Sorry, your Daily Power missed."
Player: "I have an encounter ability that lets me add another +1 to my roll..."
DM: "well you can try to use it to see if it helps..."
Player: "OK, I'll use it."
DM: "Sorry, still not enough."

These types abilities are for giving players to bend the odds a little in their favor, push themselves a tiny bit, and give them a tiny bit of narrative control, in my opinion. Don't rob them of that.

Let them know if their attack is going to narrowly miss, or if they missed by a mile. You don't have to tell them they missed by 1, but use descriptive keywords to clue them in. Their blow glances off their armor, or their foe leans back and you miss by a hair. Or on the other end, tell them that they swung wide, or the spell flies high over their head, or whatever you feel is appropriate.

Mengu · Jan 6, 2010

For powers like Shield, my players have a pretty easy time. I make it transparent. I will typically say something like "Does 23 hit your AC?" I usually know the answer to that question because I know the defenses of my PC's. But I ask so they know how close it was. It's also fun to see someone's face when they have Reflex 15, and I ask "Does a 35 hit your reflex?"

When they are trying to hit enemies, they usually have a reasonable idea of the ballpark of enemy defenses. I will typically also announce close calls. I might say you missed by a couple points. This usually lets them doublecheck their bonuses, make sure they added combat advantage (or someone smacks them on the head for not getting a flank bonus). Also lets the Deva decide if he wants to roll his racial power if he's within striking distance.

A reasonable amount of transparency works best for me when it comes to such powers. I rather dislike not knowing. So as DM I try to make sure the players who need to know are fully informed. Sometimes my Deva player might ask me, "if I rolled my racial could I turn it into a hit?" and I'll usually answer "Can you roll a 5 or higher?" And then he decides whether he wants to or not.

Jhaelen · Jan 6, 2010

mattcolville said:
Is the expectation there that you, the player, know how much you missed by? Or were hit by? Or are you expected to make the decision about using your power based solely on "you missed" or "you're hit?"

I think it's only fair to give an honest answer if a player asks 'would it make a difference if I used power X to increase my attack roll / defense?'

This doesn't make those powers and abilities overpowered, it actually makes them worthwhile.

mattcolville · Jan 6, 2010

Camelot said:
I let my players determine monster defenses as the game goes on using a whiteboard. When they miss with an 11, they write down AC: 12+. Then they hit with 19, so they change it to AC: 12-19. It continues to get narrowed down this way, so they don't have to keep asking me if it hits or not. Of course, it is up to them if they want to do it or not, but I'm not going to do it for them. =)

As for the DM's attack rolls, I don't tell them any values in case they freak out at really high numbers, but if they want to use such a power and I know it will have no effect, I simply tell them to save it. I don't try to disguise it, I just let them know that it won't help so they don't waste the power.

This is basically what I/we do.

When I'm a player, we do the "process of elimination" thing where we write down the hits and misses until we deduce what the AC is.

When I'm GMing I just say "you miss" until they hit, then I tell them the AC. I figure, once they hit, they should know what the AC is. No point making them do the bookkeeping.

I find it interesting that there's apparently no actual rule for this stuff.

Powers and abilities that grant a bonus after a Roll

mattcolville

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Mort_Q

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Danceofmasks

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mattcolville

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