A couple of questions on 4E Immortal design

Khisanth the Ancient · Feb 8, 2010

Upper_Krust said:
'Vastly' you say...can you expound upon that?

The Dreamlands stories very clearly distinguish between the 'mild gods of Earth' including beings like Nodens, Neptune, Hypnos, etc. -- basically, those worshiped historically by Earthly cultures -- and the "Other Gods" led by Nyarlathotep. The gods of Earth are limited to Earth and its dreamlands and have no power beyond, and can sometimes be tricked or overcome (if you're someone super-experienced like Randolph Carter with all sorts of dreamland lore) -- but are still quite dangerous to deal with. The Other Gods are universe-wide, and seem to be far more powerful than the gods of Earth even in the places of power of those Earthly gods, and can overpower their control even of their own servants in their own places (Nodens's nightgaunts on Kadath itself in The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath) -- and Nyarlathotep is the most powerful of the active Other Gods (Azathoth is not very active being blind, mindless, and in the center of the universe).

Nyarlathotep is also sometimes associated with the destruction of the Earth, so he seems to be pretty powerful. It's implied that the forms that appear aren't *all* of him but just the tip of the iceberg; he has all sorts of avatars and forms distributed throughout time and space (a weird magical-electrical showman, some Egyptian pharaoh or other, the 'devil' Dark Man form encountered by witches, the form encountered by Randolph Carter in the dreamlands, the Haunter of the Dark which is a sort of darkness-serpent thing, some Mi-Go form) but he's also the soul of the Outer Gods. I'm pretty sure he's supposed to represent Entropy ("crawling chaos" seems to be Lovecraft's poetic term for that).

So, in Immortals Handbook terms, he'd probably be a powerful sidereal, something like a super-Tharizdun, or possibly like Tamas, first one of entropy.

paradox42 · Feb 9, 2010

I have to disagree with that assessment actually. First and perhaps most importantly, Randolph Carter at least tied Nyarlathotep in the Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath even if you don't think he beat the Outer God. I'd go into detail, but I'd have to spoiler-text it for those who haven't read the book.

Second, the one way Lovecraft himself ever described Nyarlathotep (other than with the epithet "the Crawling Chaos") was by calling him "the Soul of the Other Gods" and/or "the Mind of the Other Gods." Nyarlathotep himself doesn't actually contain much if any power; his power is wholly derived from theirs- he just looks so powerful to Earthers because he is, in fact, more powerful than Earth's gods and he is in fact the most active "Other God."

What it looks like to me is that Nyarlathotep is a sort of avatar or proxy of the Sidereals, which doesn't necessarily imply that he's one himself. He could be a powerful Greater God (or higher, if you're using the tiers of godhood I'll be describing in my "crazy cosmology thread" tonight or tomorrow) with a template from Sidereal favor that gives him extra Cosmic Abilities (or perhaps even a Transcendental).

Khisanth the Ancient · Feb 9, 2010

paradox42 said:
I have to disagree with that assessment actually. First and perhaps most importantly, Randolph Carter at least tied Nyarlathotep in the Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath even if you don't think he beat the Outer God.

He escaped a trap, with outside help from the 'owners' of the Dreamlands; he didn't actually compete with Nyarlathotep in any sort of power-contest. And it's not totally clear what Nyarlathotep's purposes there really were (as it never is when Nyarlathotep is involved).

Almost certainly Randolph Carter wouldn't have survived if one of Nyarlathotep's more monstrous forms had been present. The being Carter encountered wasn't all of Nyarlathotep, just an avatar or whatever -- he's also being the Haunter of the Dark off wherever it lives, being that devil figure for witches, etc. etc.

Second, the one way Lovecraft himself ever described Nyarlathotep (other than with the epithet "the Crawling Chaos") was by calling him "the Soul of the Other Gods" and/or "the Mind of the Other Gods."

And as the, effective, ruler of the Other Gods.

Nyarlathotep himself doesn't actually contain much if any power; his power is wholly derived from theirs

His power is presumably sourced from Azathoth, sure; but Nyarlathotep is 100% in control of it. Azathoth (and most if not all of the Other Gods, barring Nyarlathotep) are totally mindless; they don't have any kind of 'veto power'. He is the soul of the Outer Gods, and it's not really meaningful IMO to distinguish between them in purposes and power.

Khisanth the Ancient · Feb 10, 2010

Silverslith stats (4e: 3e coming later) -

Silverslith, young
Level 23 Solo Brute
Gargantuan aberrant beast XP 25500
Initiative: 14
HP: 1105; Bloodied: 552
AC: 37 Fortitude: 40 Reflex: 31 Will: 36
Resist fire 15, electricity 15
Immune acid, poison
Saving Throws +5
Speed 8, climb 8

Tentacle Lash (at-will, standard, basic attack) Reach 3, +26 vs. AC, 2d6+8 damage and target is grabbed (save ends).

Plucking Tentacle (at-will, standard) Reach 10, +26 vs. AC, 2d6+8 damage.

Gnash (at-will, standard, only against grabbed opponents) +26 vs. AC, 4d6+8 damage and ongoing 10 damage (save ends).

Forest of Tentacles (at-will, standard) The silverslith makes two tentacle attacks.

Tentacular Fury (recharge 4 5 6, standard) Close Blast 5, +26 vs. AC, 4d8+8 damage. Miss: Half damage.

A Bloated Horror (recharge 6, move) Close Burst 3, +24 vs. Reflex, 5d10+8 damage, and the silverslith may shift up to 5 spaces.

Tittering Laughter (encounter, standard) Close Burst 15, +24 vs. Will, 2d6+8 psychic damage and the target is dazed (save ends).

The Silverslith Does Not Bleed (immediate reaction; encounter; when first bloodied) The silverslith heals 100 hit points and gains resist all 10 until the end of its next turn.

Action points 2
Languages None
Str 31 (+21) Dex 16 (+14) Wis 18 (+15)
Con 29 (+20) Int 6 (+9) Cha 22 (+17)

Silverslith, medium
Level 29 Solo Brute
Gargantuan aberrant beast XP 75000
Initiative: 17
HP 1355; Bloodied 677
AC 43 Fortitude 47 Reflex 36 Will 41
Resist fire 15, electricity 15
Immune acid, poison
Saving Throws +5
Speed 8, climb 8

Tentacle Lash (at-will, standard, basic attack) Reach 4, +32 vs. AC, 2d8+10 damage and target is grabbed (save ends).

Plucking Tentacle (at-will, standard) Reach 12, +26 vs. AC, 2d6+8 damage.

Gnash (at-will, standard, only against grabbed opponents) +32 vs. AC, 4d8+10 damage and ongoing 15 damage (save ends).

Forest of Tentacles (at-will, standard) The silverslith makes two tentacle attacks.

Tentacular Fury (recharge 4 5 6, standard) Close Blast 6, +32 vs. AC, 4d10+9 damage. Miss: Half damage.

A Bloated Horror (recharge 6, move) Close Burst 4, +30 vs. Reflex, 5d12+9 damage, and the silverslith may shift up to 5 spaces.

Tittering Laughter (encounter, standard) Close Burst 20, +30 vs. Will, 2d8+10 psychic damage and the target is dazed (save ends).

The Silverslith Does Not Bleed (immediate reaction; encounter; when first bloodied) The silverslith heals 150 hit points and gains resist all 15 until the end of its next turn.

Action points 2
Languages None
Str 35 (+26) Dex 16 (+17) Wis 18 (+18)
Con 31 (+24) Int 6 (+12) Cha 22 (+20)

Silversliths of the largest size would require the Mega size rules.

I think its one possible area we can exploit, although how different such ecosystems would be to say, a very dangerous layer of the Abyss is anyone's guess. So I am not sure if its a fundamental change.

Yeah, it would be fun. Some should probably be in the Abyss; layers where even beings like Orcus and Demogorgon dare not go...

Been trying to think of who would comprise the perfect 4E party for each tier above Epic. Any thoughts on this?

I'd suggest Aegaeon, a. k. a. Briareus, from Greek myth for the open Sidereal Defender slot. The Hecatoncheires were at least a match for the Titans and so should be Elder One level themselves.

Yqatuba · Feb 25, 2010

Maybe a dumb question but why are levels so much lower than in 3ed (i.e Time Lords are only level 60-something and not 1000+ like in 3ed)

Khisanth the Ancient · Feb 25, 2010

Yqatuba said:
Maybe a dumb question but why are levels so much lower than in 3ed (i.e Time Lords are only level 60-something and not 1000+ like in 3ed)

Probably because writing new powers, feats, etc. for 97 new tiers of play would take so long that WOTC would be on 10th edition at least. It's not like 3e where theoretically infinite progression was already provided for by the ELH.

Upper_Krust · Feb 25, 2010

Yqatuba said:
Maybe a dumb question but why are levels so much lower than in 3ed (i.e Time Lords are only level 60-something and not 1000+ like in 3ed)

As Khisanth already mentioned, it would be impossible to develop rules for such high levels, but more importantly its redundant, and 4E does away with redundancy.

Level 1000 would require 97 new tiers wherein each tier needs about 30 new class abilities (PER CLASS) which is about 69,840+ abilities. Not to mention a minimum of 100 monsters per tier, which is another 97,000+ monsters...and that would be just to get to Time Lords, what of High Lords etc. :lol:

Just toput that into perspective I doubt the entire history of D&D has seen upwards of 5000 monsters!

The 4E approach is much simpler and also far more effective. It has greatly condensed the rate of advancement.

So for instance the average difference between a Demigod and Lesser God in 3E may have been 25 ECL, now its just 5 levels. The average difference between a Greater God and an Elder One in 3E may have been 80 ECL, now its just 5 levels, etc. Conversely of course the playable power bracket of 4E is much tighter (roughly +/-5 Levels) compared to the more loose framework of 3E (probably Half to Double ECL).

In keeping with the spirit of things I have condensed my own immortal hierarchy a tad further because at best I can see myself detailing three tiers (and thats a best case scenario where I actually release books rather than just talk about them).

So there will be a Legendary Tier, an Immortal Tier and a Sidereal Tier. I have enough ideas to fill those up with abilities, powers, monsters and adventures.

Yqatuba · Feb 25, 2010

That makes sense. Also just wondering has anyone actually played all the way from level 1 to 1000+ in a 3e campaign?

Alzrius · Feb 26, 2010

Upper_Krust said:
Just toput that into perspective I doubt the entire history of D&D has seen upwards of 5000 monsters!

Actually, according to Echohawk's Complete D&D Monster Index, as of the end of 2008 there were just over 34,000 monsters published for D&D across all of the editions. Note that this includes, however, PC races and different editions of the same monsters.

Still, even with some overlap, that's a heck of a lot more than 5,000. And take into account third-party contributions (and it being over a year later) it probably hits the 50,000 mark easy.