Dex-Build for the Bard

Nifft · Feb 10, 2010

So, this thread got me thinking: would anything break terribly if the Prescient Bard -- and all associated powers -- keyed off of Dexterity instead of Wisdom?

Dex is obviously a power-up over Wisdom (since Wis and Cha both feed Will), but I don't see it as a broken power-up...

Thoughts? Thanks, -- N

BobTheNob · Feb 10, 2010

Nifft said:
So, this thread got me thinking: would anything break terribly if the Prescient Bard -- and all associated powers -- keyed off of Dexterity instead of Wisdom?

Dex is obviously a power-up over Wisdom (since Wis and Cha both feed Will), but I don't see it as a broken power-up...

Thoughts? Thanks, -- N

Not a breakage as such. But it does dramatically change the dynamic a bit. Given the bard is a no limit multiclasser and the stats of a class determine is feasibility to multiclass, this utterly changes the way a prescient bard would multiclass.

On another not, prescient, the word itself, means "to know beforehand" or have some degree of foresight. Makes sense when Wisdom is the key stat, and absolutely no sense what-so-ever to use dexterity. Fluff wise, its absolutely wrong.

As to the original thread saying there are no sneaky (dex based) leaders, but why is that a problem? Its like trying to create one is trying to solve a problem that doesnt exist.

So no, there is no breakage in my sight, but the thing I dont get is, whats your justification for proposing this?

Nifft · Feb 10, 2010

BobTheNob said:
Not a breakage as such. But it does dramatically change the dynamic a bit. Given the bard is a no limit multiclasser and the stats of a class determine is feasibility to multiclass, this utterly changes the way a prescient bard would multiclass.

Sure, he'll be able to multiclass into things that use bows and Dexterity, like Ranger (as opposed to Seeker).

But mostly he'll still multiclass into things that use Charisma, or he'll take Combat Virtuoso and use Charisma for everything anyway.

In other words, this "utter" change is actually quite minimal.

BobTheNob said:
On another not, prescient, the word itself, means "to know beforehand" or have some degree of foresight. Makes sense when Wisdom is the key stat, and absolutely no sense what-so-ever to use dexterity. Fluff wise, its absolutely wrong.

High Initiative = prescient. It's a perfect fit.

BobTheNob said:
As to the original thread saying there are no sneaky (dex based) leaders, but why is that a problem? Its like trying to create one is trying to solve a problem that doesnt exist.

The problem is: it's hard to create a whole party based on being sneaky, because there are no sneaky Leaders. That problem exists.

Cheers, -- N

Flipguarder · Feb 11, 2010

I pointed this out in another thread but a valrous bard can have a decent stealth skill if he doesn't mind having a 14, 15 or so in con to begin with. Just switch-off between con and dex at point levels, grab a +2 stealth background, two feats and some stealth items and you will be up there.

Nifft · Feb 11, 2010

Flipguarder said:
I pointed this out in another thread but a valrous bard can have a decent stealth skill if he doesn't mind having a 14, 15 or so in con to begin with. Just switch-off between con and dex at point levels, grab a +2 stealth background, two feats and some stealth items and you will be up there.

1/ That's assuming you use Backgrounds. My group doesn't -- we agreed they were 100% pure power creep -- so that bit is unfit for my purposes.

2/ The rest may work in a low-power game, where AC doesn't matter as much, but consider what you're giving up by NOT maxing out Con -- at least 4 points AC and Fort defense. That's significant. Allowing a build which maxed out Dexterity would cover that, replacing AC & Fort with AC & Reflex.

Cheers, -- N

Flipguarder · Feb 11, 2010

Ill just show you my bard. He's got a -1 to hit than he could, but otherwise I would not have a problem using him. I understand he's not complete but I was focussed on maxing the stealth skill. I think its a fair point: as long as your secondary stat is not vital to your success, you can do a lot.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
stealth1, level 30
Halfling, Bard
Build: Valorous Bard
Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Valor
Background: Halfling - Banned (+2 to Stealth)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 20, Dex 20, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 26.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 14, Dex 15, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 16.

AC: 43 Fort: 36 Reflex: 37 Will: 40
HP: 177 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 44

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +21, Diplomacy +28, Acrobatics +26, Athletics +19, Bluff +28, Stealth +34

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Dungeoneering +18, Endurance +20, Heal +18, History +17, Insight +18, Intimidate +24, Nature +18, Perception +18, Religion +17, Streetwise +24, Thievery +22

FEATS
Bard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Shadow Initiate
Level 2: Skill Focus (Stealth)

POWERS

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Greater Ring of Invisibility (epic tier), Magic Spiritmail +6, Amulet of Protection +6
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Starfox · Feb 11, 2010

I tried making a separate Dex-based bard build, the Graceful Bard. It is currently in play at level 22 (played from level 1).

Blackbrrd · Feb 11, 2010

Nifft said:
...
The problem is: it's hard to create a whole party based on being sneaky, because there are no sneaky Leaders. That problem exists....

Can't you just make an Elf Cleric (laser variant) multiclassed into Ranger? Do a 18wis/18dex split and you should have a pretty sneaky leader with some striker-ish elements. You should be able to pick up a longbow that can be used vs foes that are at long range, and since the holy symbol doesn't use any hands, you can use that at close range.

UngeheuerLich · Feb 11, 2010

Nifft said:
1/ That's assuming you use Backgrounds. My group doesn't -- we agreed they were 100% pure power creep -- so that bit is unfit for my purposes.

2/ The rest may work in a low-power game, where AC doesn't matter as much, but consider what you're giving up by NOT maxing out Con -- at least 4 points AC and Fort defense. That's significant. Allowing a build which maxed out Dexterity would cover that, replacing AC & Fort with AC & Reflex.

Cheers, -- N

How do you lose out 4 points of AC by not maxing constitution?

If you speak of Hide armor expertise, you can as well go with scale and scale expertise or shield expertise with 15 dex.

you also have the benefit of heavy blade opportunity and you are able to multiclass as ranger.

a 16/14/14/13 sperad or a 16/15/14/11 spread or even a 18/13/13 spread can serve you well enough to get dexterity and constitution and charisma to a point where it serves you well enough. You don´t need a single point in int for a dex based bard. A single multiclass feat (ranger) gets you bow abilities as well as stealth)

the build flipguarder proposed seems well enough

I would add in Level 4 Scale mail proficiency and at level 11 scale mail specialization. (If you use a bow regularily, shield specialization is less useful)

a 16/14/14/13 spread which is my favourite opens up many more possibilities.

Nifft · Feb 11, 2010

Flipguarder said:
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 20, Dex 20, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 26.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 14, Dex 15, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 16.

UngeheuerLich said:
you can as well go with scale and scale expertise or shield expertise with 15 dex.
(...)
the build flipguarder proposed seems well enough I would add in Level 4 Scale mail proficiency and at level 11 scale mail specialization. (If you use a bow regularily, shield specialization is less useful)

You can't qualify for any of those feats with his build. I know this is House Rules, but c'mon. At least look up ONE of the feats you suggest.

He's spread his points thin, and you're showing exactly why it's too thin.

- - -

Anyway, back on topic: anyone see anything broken about moving all the Prescient Bard's goodies to key off of Dexterity instead of Wisdom?

Thanks, -- N