Proposal: Allow Character Builder summary sheets in place of EW templates

ScorpiusRisk · Feb 25, 2010

I had no idea Pathguy updated for 4th edition. He does all that work, and its allot of work, and all with the permission of wotc. I was actually under the impression that they had asked him not to do 4e due to the CB. Obviously, I was either wrong or something changed.

If someone thinks they can do something similar to that, and has the time and willingness to do so, I would not be opposed. Even if we never used it I'm sure many would find it useful. I just have a hard time seeing that happen.

The difference between plain text and a wiki. . .

For one hosting. The text has to exist somewhere accessible. LEW does this with posts, but I find those hard to read. With a consistent format I think this doable. Its much easier to get a consistent format if we used something like word documents but then where would they be?

I suppose you could submit your word document to the judges, and they could make a finalized version and submit it to the DMs at the start of the adventure. I'd rather not make more work for the judges, or require them to keep and secure information.

Then there's ease of editing. Once things are in place its easy for us to have a static copy and for players to go in and make changes. Others can even go in and fix issues. I know I just corrected a formating issue on a character sheet. With Wikis theres a history so we know who edited what when. Everythings publicly visible and its easy to revert to previous versions, wether people made big mistakes, deleted something by accident or something more malicious happened.

evilbob · Feb 25, 2010

elecgraystone said:
Javascript Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Character Generator

WOW that is a TON of stuff!!! What a huge amount of work that needs to be constantly updated... Yikes.

In order to be a useful character sheet for this board, something would have to be incredibly generic. That pathguy site isn't practical because every month he's got to re-code the site. Another year and it probably won't even load on a browser. Our wiki pages are practical because you just add a bunch of bonuses and call them whatever you want; in the end, all it does is simple addition. It doesn't care about specifics, just numbers.

But it's not just that. The wiki site offers things that so far no one else can duplicate: for one, it tracks changes. That is HUGE, because it enforces a level of honesty. You can't just change your character sheet and expect that no one will notice.

Edit: Scorp ninja'd my point.

Ok, tell you what: let's just be practical about this. What are our requirements for a character sheet? I'll start with a few:

- must be online so that anyone can view it (group-only access is acceptable)
- exists somewhere that won't disappear/go down easily
- easy to use and do data-entry by anyone familiar with D&D (you can assume a base level of game knowledge)
- must represent the "math" of how someone arrives at their numbers (specifically HP, attacks, defenses, etc.)
- must be able to "lock" a specific incarnation of a sheet while also allowing players to mess around with them
- must represent powers, feats, effects, etc. without actually reproducing them in a copyright-infringing way
- does not require DDI subscription (these two may be mutually exclusive)
- robust enough to be adaptable to whatever new thing WotC throws our way

Would also be nice:
- so easy anyone (even someone new to D&D) could use it

Our current wiki doesn't fill all those needs. In particular, it is dinged for ease-of-use, existing somewhere that won't disappear, and not infringing on WotC (I don't think it's possible not to infringe AND not to require DDI).

I'm sure there are more requirements; what else can ppl think of?

elecgraystone · Feb 25, 2010

stonegod said:
Ugh: That is probably one of the poorest usability designs I have seen in a while. Its probably quite complex on the javascript (takes a minute to load on my browser), but its definitely not "simplified".

I'll agree with that. However it shows what can be done. Giving every section a drop down list would improve it greatly.

ScorpiusRisk said:
If someone thinks they can do something similar to that, and has the time and willingness to do so, I would not be opposed.

Well that's the question isn't it? If anyone has any ideas I'd be overjoyed to hear them.

ScorpiusRisk said:
Its much easier to get a consistent format if we used something like word documents but then where would they be?

Well I know that you can have documents saved on deviantart. Shouldn't be too much of an issue having them there or someplace like that. You could then have a post with links to everyone's sheet and we could put them in our sigs. That way the GM's, judges and reviewers could see them whenever they want.

Editing and histories would be an issue. I guess we could always have an account just for sheets and we copy that, make our changes and submit that file for review. Once it's ok'd, the reviewer can copt it over the old one in the community account.

ScorpiusRisk · Feb 25, 2010

Its definantly a possibility. Slightly more work for the judges. It also means that you'd be editing your sheet allot less. You'd probably have to take personal notes and then only submit your sheet when you level. If people resubmitted sheets everytime they got an item or received xp it would be ridiculous.'

I know I enjoy the ability to update my sheet during an adventure.

The other issue there is consistency. Word documents can be relatively formatted but won't display exactly the same from say, word to open office. Or even from open office mac or open office pc. It wouldn't be an issue as they as we kept the format as boring as possible.

Still, doesn't exactly make me smile.

evilbob · Feb 25, 2010

There already exists Excel 4.0 sheets which are incredible. They fall into the "need to be constantly updated" category, tho. They are on Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition.

Dekana · Feb 26, 2010

Would it be practical to port over the enworld wiki to wikia.com? Our current scheme may not be the easiest for new users, but it has a lot of benefits that have been pointed out by evilbob. I like the wiki.

elecgraystone · Feb 26, 2010

Well you can edit your sheet all you want. Just keep a copy on your machine or deviantart account and make your changes on it. It's just not going to show up for everyone until level up. I'll agree to JUST sending them in at level up.

Actually, now that I think of it, it might be a good idea for everyone to have their own account and show that in the sig and then have one in an official list with the reviewed one. That way you can edit all you want and there is a record of where you started the level at. Not ideal but workable.

Formating could be an issue but it's just a matter of making up a sheet and having everyone try it out. If someone has an issue, we can work to fix it. I think it could work and everyone understands a text sheet so even new people can use it.

ScorpiusRisk · Feb 26, 2010

The other difference between a wiki and a text document is the amount you type. With the wiki, when you're filling out you're skill math you only have to put in your dex mod once. With a doc you put it in for each dex skill. You then put in your half a level score for each skill.

Still, it sounds like people are willing to do a little more typing for the sake of clarity. Knowing what you're doing could be allot less work than figuring things out.

It seems to me the alternative may be google documents. I just thought of this so I apologize for not bringing it up earlier.

Google Documents would ensure that everyone was using the same editing program and everyone sees the same end result. It runs on nearly any browser regardless of operating system.

It requires a free account to use. Its hosted for free. Documents can be made publicly viewable, publicly editable, or editable by invitation only. Each option keeps an edit history just like a wiki.

We could set up a default template, with an example character and it would just be like filling out a traditional paper character sheet only far more customizable and you never run out of space.

I shall begin playing with this.

elecgraystone · Feb 26, 2010

evilbob said:
There already exists Excel 4.0 sheets which are incredible. They fall into the "need to be constantly updated" category, tho. They are on Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition.

Excel you say... Now you have my attention. I'll have to check those out when I'm on a machine that can read them. Though that does raise an issue. Will everyone be able yo use Excel sheets?

EDIT: Just say the post about Google Documents. That does sound interesting and would take care of edits and history. I'm really liking the sound of that. Let us know what you find out ScorpiusRisk.

ScorpiusRisk · Feb 26, 2010

Excel is available to all users via open office and google docs. However, consistency then becomes an issue.

Edit: However if everyone was using google document spreadsheets that wouldnt be a problem.

Edit2: I see your edit which makes my edit unnessesary