Proposal: Allow Character Builder summary sheets in place of EW templates

ScorpiusRisk · Feb 26, 2010

Thats very pretty. I wish I had known about it.

It does however validate my point about the problem with these sheets doing the math for you.

On a wiki, the code that makes the tables work is hosted on a separate page. The formulas for this are right on the page. It took me less than a minute to delete a formula and have to revert.

It's nice to be able to revert, but what about when you don't realize you did it till an hour of work later?

elecgraystone · Feb 26, 2010

evilbob said:
I'm sorry you had such a bad time, honestly. And again, I'm not arguing against sheets and for wikis: I am just saying that while your experience is one thing, mine is the opposite. Neither is "right".

True, but if I'm having these kind of issue and I've worked with it for a while can you expect a new user to do better?

evilbob said:
If hand-entered sheets are great for one but horrible for the others, then they are just as bad as something that is great for data entry.

However we are having people say "I'd join but the wiki is too hard". We have people say they suck to update (me). So the sheet we have already fails that test. With excel math added in to the sheet I think a hand sheet would beat out the wiki sheet in just about everything.

The sheets look nice. My only complaint would be the color of the last power block. it's a bit bright for me.

As far as deleting a formula and having to revert, yes that's an issue. However more of an issue than having to redo wiki multiple times or clicking the save button to only find it error'd and you lost an hour of work? Even if you spend as much time as wiki fixing these errors you'd be ahead in my book by knowing what you are typing and for what.

ScorpiusRisk · Feb 26, 2010

As far as deleting a formula and having to revert, yes that's an issue. However more of an issue than having to redo wiki multiple times or clicking the save button to only find it error'd and you lost an hour of work? Even if you spend as much time as wiki fixing these errors you'd be ahead in my book by knowing what you are typing and for what.

Ah but thats the thing. As soon as you add formulas to the sheet all those things can still happen. Excel formulas are written in far from plain English. You can absolutely work for an hour, trying to do something, only to discover that it was all worthless because something is pointing to the wrong cell somewhere, and you have no idea where.

I know I had to restart that sheet once just to get the cells lined up correctly and I didn't even add information yet, nevermind formulas.

The only way to take away that headache for everyone would be to leave formula and coding out of it all together. Which means more math for Checker and Player.

But I'm still just talking about the same amount when using a piece of paper. We are still playing D&D right?

evilbob · Feb 26, 2010

elecgraystone said:
can you expect a new user to do better?

evilbob <- new user

Seriously, I'm really sorry you had such a bad time. My experience was different. We have people saying "the wiki is too hard." We also have people saying "we need an easy way to check stuff." This whole thing is a gray area. You think the gray is more black. I think the gray is more white. The answer is definitely in between.

Re: everything Scorp just said

Hmmmmmm... Can you use these Google docs to do macros? If we had a standard, separate sheet that someone could just fill out (maybe similar to the CB file?) that could then be imported with a macro into a standard, excel-like document file, that way no one would have to mess much with the standard excel-like document file and they could just edit their import file. Stop me if this makes no sense.

I wonder if that's possible? If so, I bet someone has done it somewhere already...

Oh! What if the formulas were on a different page and the data was on the first page? It'd be harder to mess it up.

Also, tell me again how this is different from the other Excel file from dnd4.com?

ScorpiusRisk · Feb 26, 2010

*Shrug* I dunno. I thought you said it didn't work. I didn't even look at it.

elecgraystone · Feb 26, 2010

evilbob said:
evilbob <- new user

No new user = first time user. As you've said you have already taken time out to work with it, meaning you aren't a new user. Would first time user be better?

evilbob said:
The answer is definitely in between.

I don't see this really. I've never heard anyone say after the first time that filled out the wiki sheet 'boy that was easy'.

To reply to ScorpiusRisk, there didn't seem to be any issue when I used it but that might be the fact that I've used excel before. In fact it was easy to change my basic ranged attack to STR and have it come out right. A BIG plus in my book over wiki templates.

In fact it's easier to use than I remember. Just double click a cell, click on the cell you want to access and hit enter. It also means that you have to double click, click something else or backspace and enter to get rid of a formula. To double check, I deleted the HP total formula and tried to fix it. All it took was opening up the cell (double click) then clicking on every cell I wanted to add together putting a '+' between each then enter. HP total back! Excel seems better than wiki for formula's since it uses straight math so even if you screw up a formula all you have to do to fix it is know how to add. I have no clue how to fix a wiki formula.

ScorpiusRisk · Feb 27, 2010

I think we're getting into an area where its easier because you know it, but lots of people have never used Excel before.

None the less, I am, after looking at weldon's sheet, working on one with formulas (following a similar color scheme as well). However, I've just started and already I have used a validation as well as some shorthand algebra.

Theoretically, people shouldn't even ever see it when I'm done. But when people make mistakes on this sheet, we'll certainly need to be prepared to help them.

Obviously I'm playing devils advocate a bit here, as I wouldn't be doing all this work if I thought it was worthless.

elecgraystone · Feb 27, 2010

Yeah, I'll readily admit excel came back quickly even though I haven't used it in years. As I recall, it didn't take me very long at first to get the hang of excel when I started but everyone takes to things differently don't we.

I'd be happy to help anyone having an issue with the sheets. Unlike wiki, I can actually offer help with excel. I'd have offered to help build the sheet but I'm not strong on the design end. I could make a sheet that works but I don't think it'd look pretty. Give me formulas and algebra any day.

ScorpiusRisk · Feb 27, 2010

You wanna help? I need a mathematical formula for figuring out cost of an initial attribute.

So if Strength is 8, it costs 0. If Strength is 14, the cost is 7.

I need a math formula for that.